Author: expatter

Han Prosperity and Foreign Decline in China.   [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2012-6-29 16:35:06 |Display all floors
grb Post time: 2012-6-29 15:52
True China has done better with the Han at the helm, but that does not give the Han the right to for ...

That is a welcome comment and of course those other issues are ones currently being debated ..........




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Post time 2012-6-29 19:06:05 |Display all floors
expatter Post time: 2012-6-29 16:30
The Qin which preceded and became the Han Dynasty stretched from N. Korea down to Shanghai and th ...

The Qin which preceded and became the Han Dynasty stretched from N. Korea down to Shanghai and the Eastern seaboard of China and it stretched across to central China. I consider the eastern seaboard of China to be ‘in the east’.  Now, it did not start in Turkmenistan down to Guangdong which I personally would consider as Western China, or is it possible that I should I change hands as left for right?



False, where do you think the first emperor of China came from? Central China, and he reunited China by conquering towards the Eastern Seaboard, to deny this is to revise history. Please go back and study the history of the warring states, not the Qin empire which has already been established, that should be a no brainer.

Guangdong become part of the Han territory in the Qin Dynasty (222 BC) to the Pearl River and the rest in 111 BC and had previously been an independent territory. It was a political vassal only and did not fully integrate until there was massive migration from 585 – 1187.

That maybe so, but Guangdong has fully been assimilated into Han culture, over 2000 years, don't forget today China have 1.4 billion people, the population in Guangdong alone today is at the very least 30 folds of what it was back then, human migration from North to South all contributes to this. One thing is for sure Guangdong and Vietnam have nothing in common.

I think the British started that ball rolling in 1842 with the first of the ‘unequal treaties’, the succeeding events were just part of a larger whole and the Qing Dynasty ended in 1911 before even the May 4th event of 1919. In 1927 the civil war started in China and the Japanese presence (1931 then 37) became additional fuel in an established conflagration. Neither the KMT, nor the communists weakened the Japanese as they were saving themselves to fight each other.  I do not think many in China would see the Japanese invasion as ‘not bad’, especially if you came into contact with them at that time.  It was certainly not the Chinese that finished, or even would have finished the Japanese although they did keep them occupied in very large numbers.

The fact is the Chinese were fighting both the Soviets, at that time and drove them out of Xinjiang, and another front where the kept the Japanese from ever entering the Chinese heartlands, the Communist and the KMT did not get along true, they were fighting each other even as there were fighting against the Japanese, but the Western warlords, or the muslim warlords did declare ceasefire and devoted their entire resources to fight against the Japanese. In the end the Japanese came nowhere close to conquering China, and the Chinese resistance were gaining momentem and strength towards the end of the war. The Japanese by then have run out of resources, are starving and it's just a matter of time before they were completely driven out.

The Chinese did not go into civil war until 16 years after the end of Qing rule. If the KMT had not attacked the Communists then it is possible that the then hotch-potch government (1921 -1927) may have found a way forward without a civil war.

Actually rebellion already started all throughout the 18th century, i suggest you read up on the Xinghai revolution, regional warlords are already fighting for control of territories during the early 19th century, the Qing has already lost control by this time.


This is where you name them  ………  Right  ………  ?

    ………  the Yuan Dynasty sparks the Golden age of the Ming Dynasty, ………


No. It sparked a revolution against it which led to the Ming Dynasty and therefore equals a different thing ………..

I suggest you relearn history instead of just selectively picking data. The Yuan Dynasty was a peaceful collapse during which it's each was hastened by Kublai Khans death, and the preceeding power and authority handed back to his Han, and a few Turkic advisors.


WWII never reunited China. The Communists did some years after WWII ended 1945 - 1949.

It was the spark needed to get the divided factions focused on a common enemy, as evident when the Manchu warlords, and the Muslim warlords unite themselves with both the CCP and the KMT to resist against the Japanese


The Industrial Age was 1750 -1900 not 1927 – 1949 ………

China missed out on over 300 years of progress, they were nowhere in the industrial age by the end of WW2 but the war sped up that progress and awaken it's people of the need to advance both in science and in military

I do suggest you not misinform yourself or the audience, because having too little information and knowledge tend to lead you to misinterpret certain events, and it is obvious you have not fully verse in Chinese history, and is only beginning to learn, well that's a good thing, I encourage you to read up on everything I just stated and do back it up with sources next time if you have a differing oppinion.

Also don't come at me with irrelevant topics like the Industrial age, or a full scale Chinese civil war did not start until 1927, those factors are really subjective, and we can go to the ends just to debate on subjective yet irrelevant issues.
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Post time 2012-6-29 19:07:54 |Display all floors
This post was edited by GermanClown at 2012-6-29 20:07
expatter Post time: 2012-6-29 16:30
The Qin which preceded and became the Han Dynasty stretched from N. Korea down to Shanghai and th ...

The Qin which preceded and became the Han Dynasty stretched from N. Korea down to Shanghai and the Eastern seaboard of China and it stretched across to central China. I consider the eastern seaboard of China to be ‘in the east’.  Now, it did not start in Turkmenistan down to Guangdong which I personally would consider as Western China, or is it possible that I should I change hands as left for right?



False, where do you think the first emperor of China came from? Central China, and he reunited China by conquering towards the Eastern Seaboard, to deny this is to revise history. Please go back and study the history of the warring states, not the Qin empire which has already been established, that should be a no brainer.

Guangdong become part of the Han territory in the Qin Dynasty (222 BC) to the Pearl River and the rest in 111 BC and had previously been an independent territory. It was a political vassal only and did not fully integrate until there was massive migration from 585 – 1187.

That maybe so, but Guangdong has fully been assimilated into Han culture, over 2000 years, don't forget today China have 1.4 billion people, the population in Guangdong alone today is at the very least 30 folds of what it was back then, human migration from North, West to South all contributes to this. One thing is for sure Guangdong and Vietnam have nothing in common.

I think the British started that ball rolling in 1842 with the first of the ‘unequal treaties’, the succeeding events were just part of a larger whole and the Qing Dynasty ended in 1911 before even the May 4th event of 1919. In 1927 the civil war started in China and the Japanese presence (1931 then 37) became additional fuel in an established conflagration. Neither the KMT, nor the communists weakened the Japanese as they were saving themselves to fight each other.  I do not think many in China would see the Japanese invasion as ‘not bad’, especially if you came into contact with them at that time.  It was certainly not the Chinese that finished, or even would have finished the Japanese although they did keep them occupied in very large numbers.

The fact is the Chinese were fighting both the Soviets, at that time and even managed to drive them out of Xinjiang, and another front where they kept the Japanese busy and from ever entering the Chinese heartlands(apart from airstrikes), the Communist and the KMT did not get along, they were fighting each other even as there were fighting against the Japanese, but the Western warlords, or the muslim warlords along with the Manchu Warlords did declare ceasefire and devoted their resources to fight against the Japanese. In the end the Japanese came no where close to conquering China, and the Chinese resistance were gaining momentem and strength towards the end of the war. The Japanese by then have run out of resources, are starving and it's just a matter of time before they were completely driven out.

The Chinese did not go into civil war until 16 years after the end of Qing rule. If the KMT had not attacked the Communists then it is possible that the then hotch-potch government (1921 -1927) may have found a way forward without a civil war.

Actually rebellion already started all throughout the 18th century, i suggest you read up on the Xinghai revolution, regional warlords are already fighting for control of territories during the early 19th century, the Qing has already lost control by this time. This is nothing more than a subjective matter.


This is where you name them  ………  Right  ………  ?

    ………  the Yuan Dynasty sparks the Golden age of the Ming Dynasty, ………


No. It sparked a revolution against it which led to the Ming Dynasty and therefore equals a different thing ………..


I suggest you relearn this part of history instead of just selectively picking out infos. The Yuan Dynasty by all means was a peaceful collapse during which it was hastened by Kublai Khans demise, and the preceeding power and authority handed back to his Han, and a few Turkic advisors. Of course they would be power struggles during such period of transition but without a doubt, Kublia Khan had already left a strong and united Chinese legacy for whomever that inherites it, will inherit the next Golden age, without the Yuan Dynasty, they would be not Ming dynasty.

WWII never reunited China. The Communists did some years after WWII ended 1945 - 1949.

It was the spark needed to get the divided factions focused on a common enemy, as evident when the Manchu warlords, and the Muslim warlords uniting themselves with both the CCP and the KMT to resist against the Japanese

The Industrial Age was 1750 -1900 not 1927 – 1949 ………

China missed out on over 300 years of progress, they were nowhere in the industrial age by the end of WW2 but the war sped up that progress and awaken it's people of the need to advance both in science and in military. Another subjective matter.

I do suggest you not misinform yourself or the audience, because having too little information and knowledge tend to lead you to misinterpret certain events, and it is obvious you have not fully verse in Chinese history, and is only beginning to learn, well that's a good thing, I encourage you to read up on everything I just stated and do back it up with sources next time if you have a differing oppinion.

Also don't come at me with irrelevant topics like the Industrial age started from 1750-1900, or a full scale Chinese civil war did not start until 1927, those factors are really subjective and off topic(information which I already known yet you throw it out there like it has relevance to what I said), and we can go to the ends just to debate on subjective issues.
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Post time 2012-6-29 19:54:16 |Display all floors
GermanClown Post time: 2012-6-29 19:07
The Qin which preceded and became the Han Dynasty stretched from N. Korea down to Shanghai and the  ...
False, where do you think the first emperor of China came from? Central China, and he reunited China by conquering towards the Eastern Seaboard, to deny this is to revise history. Please go back and study the history of the warring states, not the Qin empire which has already been established, that should be a no brainer.


      china-han-large.gif
   It should be a 'no-brainer' (your words) to look at the map I have attached to see that the old Qin empire is in the Eastern part of modern day China.

Not the West .............

The Qin may well have been in the east in Qin times, but not according to the modern map of China which was the sub-topic   ..............

Therefore if the Han had to go back to the old Han borders in modern times it would be to the east ..............

NEXT  ...............    !


What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left  -   Oscar Levant

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Post time 2012-6-29 20:19:54 |Display all floors
seneca Post time: 2012-6-29 20:11
Someone rewriting China's history?

Guangdong and Guangxi has always been part of the Han Empire, nothing I said was revising history. If you want to add something else that was not stated, you don't need to come with an accusatory tone, just add it and move on.

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Post time 2012-6-29 20:36:55 |Display all floors
seneca Post time: 2012-6-29 20:29
Sanitising Chinese history...

What exactly is "China"? It never existed! It's a name of convenien ...

No more different than linking nations to a single entity called the Eurozone, you know today we can hardly remember who were once Romans, who were the Goths, who were the Celts, maybe in the next thousand years we would not recognize who is Italian, who is French, who is German, who is Greek anymore. I guess you could say China may have broken those barriers 2000 years ahead of time.

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Post time 2012-6-29 20:42:56 |Display all floors
GermanClown Post time: 2012-6-29 19:07
The Qin which preceded and became the Han Dynasty stretched from N. Korea down to Shanghai and the  ...
That maybe so, but Guangdong has fully been assimilated into Han culture, over 2000 years, …………


Again, incorrect …………

The people in Guangdong only started to assimilate with the massive migration of Han from the north which I already stated 585 -1187. Therefore, they have been assimilated for less than 1,400 years but more likely to be 800 years plus.  

The fact is the Chinese were fighting both the Soviets, at that time and even managed to drive them out of Xinjiang, ………….. In the end the Japanese came no where close to conquering China, ……….The Japanese by then have run out of resources, are starving and it's just a matter of time before they were completely driven out.


In 1929 tussle between Manchurians and Russians over who ran a railway (Manchurian Chinese Eastern Railway). Then in 1930’s there was a local skirmish in Xinjiang for a few weeks of Russian ‘unbadged’ volunteers and the local Muslims. Chiang Kai-shek stayed out of it in order for it not to turn into an international event.  One can hardly call that ‘fighting the Russians’ ………..   

The Japanese of course did not get close to conquering China it was too big for them.  “A matter of time maybe”  but they were still a fighting force when they surrendered.

………….. Qing has already lost control by this time. This is nothing more than a subjective matter.


Rebellion in different areas is not the same as the whole country and therefore whilst a civil war of sorts is not the one that is referred to by historians.


    ………  the Yuan Dynasty sparks the Golden age of the Ming Dynasty, ………


No I asked for concrete examples of inventions/innovations not a wishy-washy idea about a Golden Age ……………

I suggest you relearn this part of history instead of just selectively picking out infos. The Yuan Dynasty by all means was a peaceful collapse ………………………………….they would be not Ming dynasty.


I suggest you read about the numerous rebellions and battles against the Yuan, including one with 650,000 troops. Hardly a peaceful handover …………


I suggest you read more  …………….

And don’t come at me with your ideas when they clearly do not ‘hold-water’ ………..     


What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left  -   Oscar Levant

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