Author: expatter

Han Prosperity and Foreign Decline in China.   [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2012-6-29 11:41:51 |Display all floors
Chegsyboy Post time: 2012-6-29 11:28
....and maybe hand some back from it's own unfair invasions of peaceful neighbours to the West???

Only fair if all countries do the same in retrospect  ................

The Han would end up in just the very Eastern part of China .........

Even Guangdong would be part of Vietnam (maybe) ............

And many other nations would change beyond belief  ...........     

Especially the UK ...........



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Post time 2012-6-29 15:11:01 |Display all floors
This post was edited by GermanClown at 2012-6-29 15:30
expatter Post time: 2012-6-29 11:41
Only fair if all countries do the same in retrospect  ................

The Han would end up in ju ...

The Han empire actually began in the Western and North Western part of today's China but expanded to the East, It did not begin in the East. Guanddong  had always been a part of the Han empire, your facts are all wrong here.

The Japanese invasion in retrospect is not all bad. It created a huge crisis and push a slumbering nation back into progress.

Sometimes you need great tragedy and crisis, to spark a great renewal, the Japanese invasion did just that and they provided everyone a common foe in which the revolutionaries and warlords at that time can all focus their aggression on.

China went into civil war because of the ineptness of the Qing Dynasty, the Japanese invasion helped refocus the civil war into a war against foreign invaders, sometimes a great crisis is what is needed to reawaken a slumbering society.

You cannot say the Yuan Dynasty was bad for China's progress either, in fact there are many supporting evidence that it spurs Chinese innovation and progress during this period, as Kublai Khan was very much a Confucian himself from a very young age, he actually helped expand Chinese influence, and reunite the kingdoms that were feuding among themselves during this period and Tibet fully comes under China's control during this period. Unlike the Japanese, Kublai did not commit a war of atrocity against China, he instead use the China as a vessel to fulfill his ambition and expanded the influence of confucianism.

So it's false to say the Yuan dynasty destroys Chinese progress, in fact it reunited China and spurs Chinese progress just as the Qin Dynasty, sparked the golden age of the Han Dynasty, so did the Yuan Dynasty sparked the Golden age of the Ming Dynasty.

It's also false to say WW2 destroyed Chinese progress, in fact it reunited China for the second time, China had no progress at that time, they were fighting a civil war and completely missed out on the industrial age, the Japanese actually gave the Chinese a common cause to unite.

We could look back at the Japanese invasion during WW2 that sparked the next Chinese Golden Age, but China do have a habit of falling behind just as they are getting ahead.

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Post time 2012-6-29 15:39:06 |Display all floors
From the Han to Ming dynasties, China was a center of soft power inspiring much awe, admiration and emulation by surrounding countries.  Today, China lags behind the soft power of Japan and the rising cultural clout of S. Korea.  It's dubious whether China will be able to revive another Tang style Golden Age of culture to replace the currently pervasive culture of counterfeiting.

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Post time 2012-6-29 15:45:41 |Display all floors
msrong Post time: 2012-6-29 15:39
From the Han to Ming dynasties, China was a center of soft power inspiring much awe, admiration and  ...

Foreign perception will be least of China's worry, the main worry will be the growing internal divide.  

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Post time 2012-6-29 15:52:18 |Display all floors
True China has done better with the Han at the helm, but that does not give the Han the right to force their culture and beliefs on the other ethnic groups in China.  TB and XJ.

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Post time 2012-6-29 16:30:40 |Display all floors
GermanClown Post time: 2012-6-29 15:11
The Han empire actually began in the Western and North Western part of today's China but expanded t ...
The Han empire actually began in the Western and North Western part of today's China but expanded to the East, It did not begin in the East.

The Qin which preceded and became the Han Dynasty stretched from N. Korea down to Shanghai and the Eastern seaboard of China and it stretched across to central China. I consider the eastern seaboard of China to be ‘in the east’.  Now, it did not start in Turkmenistan down to Guangdong which I personally would consider as Western China, or is it possible that I should I change hands as left for right?

Guanddong  had always been a part of the Han empire, your facts are all wrong here.

Incorrect ……….

Guangdong become part of the Han territory in the Qin Dynasty (222 BC) to the Pearl River and the rest in 111 BC and had previously been an independent territory. It was a political vassal only and did not fully integrate until there was massive migration from 585 – 1187.

The Japanese invasion in retrospect is not all bad……..

I think the British started that ball rolling in 1842 with the first of the ‘unequal treaties’, the succeeding events were just part of a larger whole and the Qing Dynasty ended in 1911 before even the May 4th event of 1919. In 1927 the civil war started in China and the Japanese presence (1931 then 37) became additional fuel in an established conflagration. Neither the KMT, nor the communists weakened the Japanese as they were saving themselves to fight each other.  I do not think many in China would see the Japanese invasion as ‘not bad’, especially if you came into contact with them at that time.  It was certainly not the Chinese that finished, or even would have finished the Japanese although they did keep them occupied in very large numbers.

China went into civil war because of the ineptness of the Qing Dynasty ……….

Incorrect .........

The Chinese did not go into civil war until 16 years after the end of Qing rule. If the KMT had not attacked the Communists then it is possible that the then hotch-potch government (1921 -1927) may have found a way forward without a civil war.

…….. Yuan Dynasty was bad for China's progress either, in fact there are many supporting evidence that it spurs Chinese innovation and progress during this period …………

This is where you name them  ………  Right  ………  ?

………  the Yuan Dynasty sparks the Golden age of the Ming Dynasty, ………

No. It sparked a revolution against it which led to the Ming Dynasty and therefore equals a different thing ………..

………. it's also false to say WW2 destroys Chinese progress, in fact it reunited China for the second time,

WWII never reunited China. The Communists did some years after WWII ended 1945 - 1949.

China had no progress at that time, they were fighting a civil war and completely missed out on the industrial age,

The Industrial Age was 1750 -1900 not 1927 – 1949 ………

……… but China have a habit of falling behind when they are getting ahead.


When they are occupied, which is the premise of this thread   ………….




What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left  -   Oscar Levant

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Post time 2012-6-29 16:33:39 |Display all floors
msrong Post time: 2012-6-29 15:39
From the Han to Ming dynasties, China was a center of soft power inspiring much awe, admiration and  ...

There is a lot in what you say and already China is being recognized for advances in technology created in China  .........

Gold Wind Turbines .......

Green Gen Plant .......

Are two such examples  ...........

What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left  -   Oscar Levant

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