Author: timbatu

Crisis Looming for China K-12 Schools [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2010-6-16 11:54:04 |Display all floors
Originally posted by timbatu at 2010-6-14 11:41
My American counterparts never learn to remember, and they really know NOTHING.

1. Have you even been to America?
If so,
2. Did you talk to students who are actually serious about their education?

Or are you basing your opinion off of a few observations you made on a Friday night?

Making statements like the ones you have made above are huge insults to the many students in America who work their butt off to do well, and undermines their hard work.  Not to mention your statements are not really based on reality.  Now I will concede, some students do party, it is called having fun!  They work hard Monday to Thursday, and have fun and drink on the weekends.  It is the concept of "work hard, play harder."  Maybe you did not have enough fun in UNI and resent those who can not only study as hard as you, but also find time to have fun.  It does not mean you have to spew your nonsense about Western UNI.  Those "idiots" you see drunk on a Friday night are the same people who are in class studying like crazy on a Monday morning.

I am interested to know your personal experience with Western UNI, and more specifically, American UNI.  Not that subjective opinions are worth that much, but it can help me to understand some of your insights, which indeed seem quite outrageous as of now.

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Post time 2010-6-16 12:07:43 |Display all floors
Leave the personal attacks out of the conversation, for one.

Chinese students admit it to me themselves: "We study for the exam and cram all the knowledge into our heads, than forget everything once we pass the exam."  I have heard that so many times, and it is so evident, and so true.  It is like a bank, put the information in the head, take it out for the test.  Do you know how many colleges grads I have met who PASSED the CET4 who can't even speak English??

If you can't see that cheating is widespread, you need to open your eyes.  Americans certainly DO NOT cheat more than Chinese, because they get kicked out of UNI if they do!  I cheated once in the 10th grade, copied a paper, got a ZERO and never did again. But plagiarism is still widespread here in China, even amongst the professors, because professors are under a lot of pressure to publish as much as they can.  Not to publish quality, but quantity.  This is not a stereotype no matter how you try to cut it, there are articles online that you can find, if you want, about the widespread plagiarism and cheating in China.  It still happens.  Students buy answers all the time from companies, have answers relayed to them via cell phone and many other ways.  Why do you think many major schools have police roaming the testing centers these days?  I don't see that in the west.  Many schools have cell phone blockers during tests now too.

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The US students, everyone of them is under God. It is funny you think they are capable of critical thinking. Do you have a brain?
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You fail at logic.  You think that because some students say something about god that I am not critical?  How does that work?  How did you come to that conclusion?  What some students do has nothing to do with me or how critical I am, got it?  Your above quote has nothing to do with me, I am not even religious.  Than you add in the little childish insult at the end.  Besides, most students who do this, from my experience, do not take it seriously.  They mumble it, or lip sync, or don't even say it, because they can't be forced to.  It is really an empty practice.  Of course some people take it seriously, but you have no right to critize these people, and it certainly has no bearing on how critical they are otherwise, poor logic.

Give me a break timbatu, you reference one line about god and try to make it seem like American students are not critical.  I hear propaganda songs all the time in the malls, stores and UNIs that students believe without question.  On this level, don't even try, Chinese suck at being critical, even my Chinese gf can admit that.  Americans are actually critical and part of that comes from having the FREEDOM to speak what is on our mind.  There are classes offered on being more critical even.  People are always encouraged to question.  My students here tell me that they are encouraged to sit down and be quiet and not ask questions.  Wonderful.

[ Last edited by indiefan at 2010-6-16 12:32 PM ]

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Post time 2010-6-16 13:03:11 |Display all floors
A critical thinker cannot hold blind faith in a invisible deity.

CBC or indiefan, your fatal problem is that you really could not communicate in Chinese. You also understand very little about Chinese culture. Chinese students tell you that they are not good because they do not want you to be jealous. Chinese students hide their true views and they pretend not to be critical. You are never accepted into any close circle of Chinese, so you have no clue.

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Post time 2010-6-16 13:54:55 |Display all floors
I just said I am not religious.  I agree with what you said about religion and it being a blind faith, But those who are religious can be critical in OTHER aspects of life.  It is not possible to be critical in every aspect of life, however.  Give people a break.

Wow, all these assumptions: How do you know I am not close to any Chinese?  That is poor reasoning, and again, poor logic.  I am close to many Chinese and have some great, open minded friends, and have a Chinese gf too.   If only you knew some of the Chinese I knew.  I find it very insulting that you claim that I am not in any "inner circles" because it undermines the close relationships I have built with some of the people here, how dare you.

You also have no clue about my understanding of Chinese culture, do you know me?  Have you talked in depth with me about many different topics?  No, so keep quiet, you don't know what I know.  This is just one thread.

You must realize that many of the Chinese who go to study abroad never come back, don't you think that is strange?  China has a difficult time keeping its best and brightest, and once they leave the country, many are gone forever.  As I talk to this segment of the Chinese population, who left China, they have a lot to say about Chinese edu, and tend to agree with me.  You never responded to me, have you been outside of China, and to America???

By the way, I know a lot about Chinese culture and I do indeed know that Chinese pretend about a lot of things.  But from what I have seen from the Chinese edu, there are some words that come to my mind....BUT Jealousy is the LAST word I would use.  I don't even need students to tell me how they study, I see how they study.  I also find many of them to be very inefficient, from my observations.  

Whenever I see students giving speeches for UNI competition (and I have been invited to many), they are always in front of the podium reciting the speech like a robot, they sound like one too.  But if you ask them any tough questions, as a judge, to get them to think, they freeze up.  Anything even slightly different than what they have on their card is nearly impossible for them to address. They only know what they've memorized.  They don't know their material, they have committed it to short term memory because  a week later, If I see them, I ask them about their speeches sometimes, they know nothing!

You admit that China is a test based education.  But how you can not realize that China is a memory based education is beyond me.  It largely based on (short) term memory, for the test, with almost no practical application for most students in most majors.  Like I said, I have met countless students, who passed the CET4 who can not even communicate with me in English just one year later.  

Also, how you can be so oblivious to the wide spread cheating and especially wide spread plagiarism is a mystery to me too.  Every country cheats, but this is a really big problem in China and the president at my UNI is making an honest effort to prevent this, since, as he said, IT IS A PROBLEM here, and across China.

Also, you never replied, how many American UNIs are in the Top 100 in the world?  Go find that out!
Why does China have only 2 in the top 100, 1 being from Hong Kong?

With that knowledge, why do you continue to bash Western, and especially, American edu?

The faults in Chinese edu are NOT because of any western ideals, STOP looking for a scapegoat.

Also, lets keep to things you know.  Be logical, don't make assumptions about my friends, or who I know, or what I know.

[ Last edited by indiefan at 2010-6-16 02:08 PM ]

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Post time 2010-6-17 20:47:25 |Display all floors
indeifan, the problem is that you do not know that you are clueless. People who are religious are not critical thinkers. If they are, they would have challenged their faith. In this aspect, Chinese are much freer and true critical thinkers. Your inability in Chinese makes it impossible to understand Chinese education. You do not have the ability to understand your students in their native language. You misunderstand a language barrier as not able to think critically. Requiring students to remember things are VERY GOOD. China gets this right. This is what the US students need urgently. Remember something is better than remember nothing.

You need to read my posts. US universities are pumped up by foreign born talents. Being a third world country, Chinese universities do not have these.

As for Chinese immigration overseas, Chinese immigration rate is fraction of Europe. Ireland, whose population is fraction of China, count fro 70 per cents population in the US. Do you not consider this strange?

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Post time 2010-6-18 10:12:35 |Display all floors
Originally posted by seneca at 2010-6-18 09:21

There were in the past smarter alecks here than you that tried to talk up the value of Chinese education - and they all had to leave this forum with their tails between the legs. You are talk ...


SS, you are wrong. If you are aware of the learning pyramid, memorization is almost the top, only under application. China does not need those useless fools with watered-down Bachelors degrees. Chinese school should be 10 folds stricter!

Your students simply CANNOT understand any modern science developments, just like you SS, because they lack the basic skills in math period. You are just selffooling yourself.

Plus, SS, I look down on Journalist majors. It is totally BS. You dumb poor math fools fooling student. There should not be such majors like Political Science, English and Journalism in college.

[ Last edited by timbatu at 2010-6-18 10:17 AM ]

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Post time 2010-6-19 09:06:50 |Display all floors
Originally posted by timbatu at 2010-6-14 10:46
Crisis Looming for China K-12 Schools

I am devastated by the destruction of Chinese K-12 education system by Westernization.

Obviously, textbooks are watered down like in the dumb US. Chinese Children no longer find school interesting because the remaining material cannot make them see the forest. They are struggling and starting to hate math like their American counter parts.

China can learn, to some degree, K-12 education from a few nations in Europe, but NOT, repeat NOT from the United States.

Another problem is the Education experts are usually not good at math. Their suggestions are stupid and limited to their own areas. To get the best idea on how to educate Math, ask Math scientists. To get the best idea on how to educate Chemistry, ask Chemists. Do not ask Educational majors, they are as useless as English majors.

[ Last edited by timbatu at 2010-6-14 11:29 AM ]


Oh, it's a bit late , Timbo, after the burning of the books and the abrogation of Chinese culture in the "proletariat revolution" (another toxic import!)
(beast ex machina)

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