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'China is a threat to democracy'??? [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2010-5-13 05:55:10 |Display all floors
'China is a threat to democracy'

By Vaudine England
BBC News, Hong Kong


Lord Patten is outspoken on world affairs

The threat looming from China is not to do with cheap exports but the "dooming of democracy", former Hong Kong Governor Chris Patten has told the BBC.
Lord Patten said China promoted the idea that one could get rich without needing democracy - and such an idea posed a threat to the West.

He said regional bodies such as Asean should be strengthened so they could do more to tackle regional problems.
Lord Patten was mobbed by fans while in Hong Kong to promote his latest book.

The book, What's Next? Surviving the Twenty-first Century, tries to assess where the challenges of the future will come from.
It discusses climate change, trafficking of people, guns and drugs and other aspects of the "dark side of globalisation".

Most provocative in Asia will be his views on Burma, China and democracy, some of which have sparked anger among Asian governments in the past.
Despite interest in his book, the territory's former governor remains a divisive figure.

Asia 'hobbled'

Looking at Asian economics and politics, Lord Patten said much needed to be done to strengthen regional infrastructure, as groups such as the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (Asean) were far too weak.
       
China is I think the first example of a country which has done astonishingly well in this international system but challenges its basic foundations  
Chris Patten, diplomat author

He said he favoured Asean becoming a customs union, as a first step towards an EU-type integration, and as a challenge to the region's "protectionist instincts" and different degrees of economic development in Asean.

"And because, politically, Asean is hobbled by the membership of Burma and by its inability to address collectively the challenge of a state which abuses the human rights of its citizens so strongly," said Lord Patten.

In his book he discusses the UN doctrine of "responsibility to protect" - which could justify intervention by the international community in a state where gross abuses are taking place against the population.

But he said, "in cases like Zimbabwe, in cases like Burma, unless the neighbours are prepared to get involved, it's extremely difficult for the international community to make a difference on the ground.

"If Burma's neighbours, not only Asean but China and India, had been prepared to take a tougher line during the humanitarian crisis or when the monks were being shot, then it would have been possible for the international community to change events," said Lord Patten.
Systemic challenge

Asia poses a real challenge where the foundations of recent rapid growth in wealth and freedoms are not acknowledged, he said.
"East Asia in particular, South Asia too, has done extremely well out of a system which was largely created under American leadership, of freer markets, freer trade, leading to freer politics as well.

Student leader Wang Dan demonstrated for democracy in 1989
"China is I think the first example of a country which has done astonishingly well in this international system, but challenges its basic foundations.
"And its challenge is welcomed by autocracies which are a lot less successful, for example, dictatorships in Africa," he said.
But he said he did not think the Chinese model of "authoritarian, illiberal, proto-capitalism" would win out, because it did not have the "safety valves" provided by democracies when times were tough.

Asked if China was becoming a larger player in international affairs, he noted China's contribution to peace-keeping forces around the world.
"What they're reluctant to do I think is to accept a more interventionist role for the UN and that has particularly affected one or two countries where they've been developing substantial commercial interests."

But discussing China's role in the conflict in the Sudanese region of Darfur, he said that while China had "given some cover" to Sudan's government in the UN, it would not be "remotely fair" to blame China for the conflict.
Advice for Obama

As a large economic power, China had a large interest in stability. "Failed and failing states are bad for business if you're a big economic player," he said.
Lord Patten said he hoped US President-elect Barack Obama would provide the global leadership that had been lacking.
But he offered a word of caution for Mr Obama.

"On the back of this financial crisis the last thing we want is a period of trade protectionism.
"So I hope that [Mr Obama's] first message to Asia is that that is something he is going to resist," Lord Patten said.

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Post time 2010-5-13 09:32:21 |Display all floors
Interesting perspective. I think Patten means that developing countries with an authoritarian model of governance tend to find the Chinese model attractive because it allows them to envisage getting rich without the subsequent valuing of hum.n r.ghts, indep.ndent judic.ary, free.dom of speech and so on. There's no evidence that democratic societies in Asia or elsewhere are looking for a return to PRC-like system. Even T.awan has major issues with the current system in the PRC, and it is the major block to the relationship between the two.

The current system in the PRC is under enormous pressure, as recent social problems have indicated - and many of these problems are directly related to the absence of the concepts written in my first paragraph above (hint: the ones which don't come out looking right). It is a system which is attractive to people, if it works well, at a certain initial stage of development. It is not attractive to too many others.

[ Last edited by questioner at 2010-5-13 09:34 AM ]

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Post time 2010-5-13 13:38:16 |Display all floors
thaiblogspot.googlepages.com/ThebattleforThailand.pdf
http://globalization.icaap.org/content/v5.2/mcgettigan.html
http://facstaff.uww.edu/mohanp/357week4.html
http://www.businessweek.com/the_ ... celand_goes_ba.html
http://www.rutherford.org/articl ... y.asp?record_id=520
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/chu6.html


China may be a threat to democracy; but democracies themselves are their biggest enemies. Look at what is happening in Thailand now, democracy does a big disfavour for Thailand, Thailand is better off if it has enlightened Confucianist authoritarism. Likewise the pigs countries (portugal, ireland, italy, greece, spain) and soon japan, uk and america will have to tackle their unsustainably high public debt. Democractic governments think short term and have to attract voters by spending ridiculous amounts of money on tax breaks, welfare,etc. Democracies will soon bankrupt themselves.

Heaven Protect China from Democracy

That modern day "champions of democracy" are so woefully ignorant about something that America's Founding Fathers knew backwards and forwards, makes one want to weep with despair. It wasn't supposed to be this way. Mankind was supposed to become more sophisticated with the passage of time, not more simple-minded. Mankind was supposed to profit from precious wisdom acquired at immense cost in human lives, not blank it from memory within a few short generations.

That modern Chinese intellectuals would wind up reflexively parroting pro-democracy slogans is deeply discouraging, but is at least understandable. Democracy after all, is a western innovation. Chinese intellectuals eager to be perceived as progressive and forward thinking can be forgiven for conflating western progress in general with western democracy in particular.

But what excuse do American intellectuals have? The wisdom of America's Founding Fathers is not foreign history. The wisdom of America's Founding Fathers is not Chinese history. The wisdom of America's Founding Fathers is the vital core of America's proud history.

Demands from Chinese citizens on the mainland for the PRC government to adhere to the Rule of Law are entirely legitimate. In fact, they are absolutely essential. Idealistic PRC leaders at the central government level are pressing for such reforms themselves.

Demands from Chinese citizens on Taiwan for the PRC government to adhere to the Rule of Law are also entirely legitimate. Ironically, the current ROC government on Taiwan is far less committed to the Rule of Law than the current PRC government on the Chinese mainland.

Demands from Chinese citizens on Taiwan for the PRC government to adopt democracy before they are willing to see the two sides reunited however, are myopic folly, especially coming from Pan Blue political leaders.

Demands from foreign governments for the PRC government to adopt democracy are the most despicable of all. Demands from foreign governments that China be saddled with the worst form of government ever tried, can rightly be construed as overtly hostile gestures and looked upon askance.

Heaven protect China from Democracy!

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Post time 2010-5-13 13:47:01 |Display all floors
thaiblogspot.googlepages.com/ThebattleforThailand.pdf
http://globalization.icaap.org/content/v5.2/mcgettigan.html
http://facstaff.uww.edu/mohanp/357week4.html
http://www.businessweek.com/the_ ... celand_goes_ba.html
http://www.rutherford.org/articl ... y.asp?record_id=520
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/chu6.html


China may be a threat to democracy; but democracies themselves are their biggest enemies. Look at what is happening in Thailand now, democracy does a big disfavour for Thailand, Thailand is better off if it has enlightened Confucianist authoritarism. Likewise the pigs countries (portugal, ireland, italy, greece, spain) and soon japan, uk and america will have to tackle their unsustainably high public debt. Democractic governments think short term and have to attract voters by spending ridiculous amounts of money on tax breaks, welfare,etc. Democracies will soon bankrupt themselves.

Heaven Protect China from Democracy

That modern day "champions of democracy" are so woefully ignorant about something that America's Founding Fathers knew backwards and forwards, makes one want to weep with despair. It wasn't supposed to be this way. Mankind was supposed to become more sophisticated with the passage of time, not more simple-minded. Mankind was supposed to profit from precious wisdom acquired at immense cost in human lives, not blank it from memory within a few short generations.

That modern Chinese intellectuals would wind up reflexively parroting pro-democracy slogans is deeply discouraging, but is at least understandable. Democracy after all, is a western innovation. Chinese intellectuals eager to be perceived as progressive and forward thinking can be forgiven for conflating western progress in general with western democracy in particular.

But what excuse do American intellectuals have? The wisdom of America's Founding Fathers is not foreign history. The wisdom of America's Founding Fathers is not Chinese history. The wisdom of America's Founding Fathers is the vital core of America's proud history.

Demands from Chinese citizens on the mainland for the PRC government to adhere to the Rule of Law are entirely legitimate. In fact, they are absolutely essential. Idealistic PRC leaders at the central government level are pressing for such reforms themselves.

Demands from Chinese citizens on Taiwan for the PRC government to adhere to the Rule of Law are also entirely legitimate. Ironically, the current ROC government on Taiwan is far less committed to the Rule of Law than the current PRC government on the Chinese mainland.

Demands from Chinese citizens on Taiwan for the PRC government to adopt democracy before they are willing to see the two sides reunited however, are myopic folly, especially coming from Pan Blue political leaders.

Demands from foreign governments for the PRC government to adopt democracy are the most despicable of all. Demands from foreign governments that China be saddled with the worst form of government ever tried, can rightly be construed as overtly hostile gestures and looked upon askance.

Heaven protect China from Democracy!

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Post time 2010-5-13 15:18:32 |Display all floors
Originally posted by greatwall_sg at 2010-5-13 13:38
thaiblogspot.googlepages.com/ThebattleforThailand.pdf
http://globalization.icaap.org/content/v5.2/mcgettigan.html
http://facstaff.uww.edu/mohanp/357week4.html
[url]http://w ...


Thailand used to be rich and quite powerful until the asian financial crisis of the 90s. It was almost concidered as an Asian dragon.
The difficulties coming from financial crackdown did lead to political instability and the political system itself has nothing to do with it.
Demonstration in Thailande are against corruption and new elections will certainly stabilize the country. Gouvernment might be unhappy, but in democracy, people decide.
Who care what a brunch of corrupted politics think?

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Post time 2010-5-13 15:21:40 |Display all floors
okay..i dont want to open your link here, so many such kind link.
however, did you read news reports and investigation from former soviet union.
what's their opinion of the collapse of the former soviet uniton?
do you their favor whether the former social system or the current one?

every system has its advantage and disadvantage. the only thing is someone try to mislead the public with part of them.
what is the existing social system like us?
Nroth Korea? Vietnam? Cuba? Burma?
yes, so many disadavantges in transparency kind of system. you can ignore those postive one. just look into the disadvantages.

Originally posted by greatwall_sg at 2010-5-13 13:47
...

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Post time 2010-5-13 20:36:32 |Display all floors
It appears that there is some misconception on the concept of democracy here:

Western democracy is corrupted, not because the theory of democracy itself is corrupted, but democracy practised by America is corrupted on two basis.

Firstly, there is  "lobbying". Lobbying has become the "culture" of American electoral system since 1927 (prior to the Great Depression). It is put forward by the bankers, trade unions or large businesses that if you donate money toa political party, they will listen to your concern. For they need that money to pay for their campaign. The more money that your party have, the more likely that you can buy out the media and winyour campaign. This means, say, the US Republican party, is now opposing the Financial Regulation Bill for it would affect the profits of the financial banks, such as Goldman Sachs. So too are the democrats. They are "bought" by the bankers now. When both parties are heavily relied on the banks. The banks, together with the Federal Reserve (which is also owed by Jewish people) owes America. They control the election. As a result, democracy in America is faulted and corrupted. For it is just a "show" for uneducated Americans to watch and believe. Look at how much they believe in Obama - and i would not be surprised if 4 years later, they would all hate Obama. For Obama is merely a puppet and the puppetmaster behind is controling them (the bankers). Therefore, democracy in America, in practice, is corrupted.

2) The second problem is that ordinary voters are easily manipulated by the media (which is owned by the bankers). Media plays an important part in an election, for it tells you what's going on. Nevertheless, it can manipulate the information. They can use rhetoric to shape our minds. For example,. Fox news is extremely pro- Republicans, while CNN is extremely pro-Democrats. This means that people's mindset are constantly being shaped and re-shaped. This leads to the fact that people no longer has their "free will". They do not decide who their leaderis, but they were "told" who to vote for. Then America is no difference than China.

Following the logic, America = China. They are both a non-democratic state. The only difference is that, in China, you are told you live under a dictatorship. In America, you are told that you live in a so-called "free country"...until you found out that your country is ruled by these bankers. This leads to the fact that no country in this world is democratic. Democracy, like communism, is an ideal in theory, but faulted in practice. Both fails. If we, China, or any country in the world, is to progress, we must find a new alternative. We must evolve beyond democracy and communism into some new governing system.

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