Author: yuan_zcen

Hawaii 'independence' was suppressed [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2008-8-22 21:31:30 |Display all floors

Reply #14 mandingo's post

No one cares -- least of all the Chinese

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Post time 2008-8-23 11:18:46 |Display all floors
Originally posted by interesting at 2008-8-22 16:34
Kodama,

Not really. It's pretty well demonstrated that you don't know anything about the annexation of Hawaii, otherwise, you'd not make that comment at all. The Hawaiian monarchy was overthrown by people who were then flatly rebuffed by Pres. Cleveland, who withdrew their proposed annexation treaty, demanded that the provisional government be restored and the monarchy re-established.

You could at least have taken the time to read the Wikipedia page on the matter, you know.


I understand Cleveland objected, but Cleveland was the only obstacle and honestly an anomaly in the Gilded Age, seeing as how most Presidents in that time were Republicans and he was a Democrat. Once he was out of office a Republican came to power who approved the whole thing.

But now I want you to name the places where I pat the US on the back. Go on. Name them.


There was in fact a recent example on Iraq. That little Olympics topic.

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Post time 2008-8-23 11:39:51 |Display all floors
Kodama,

An anomaly? Google "Anti-Imperialist League" and take a look at the membership roster.

As to the rest: links or GTFO.
"Justice prevails... evil justice."

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Post time 2008-8-23 12:12:26 |Display all floors
Originally posted by interesting at 2008-8-23 11:39
Kodama,

An anomaly? Google "Anti-Imperialist League" and take a look at the membership roster.


Interesting, but clearly ignoring what I was saying. Grover Cleveland was anti-imperialist, but the Republicans were not. Since Republicans were largely in charge during that period, Cleveland was an anomaly.

As to the rest: links or GTFO.


You're gonna have to explain that one to me. Are you calling for a link to some of your many instances of supporting American aggression abroad? I'm not sure why I would even have to, it's not like I'm saying something particularly surprising. I think I'd have more of a challenge finding an instance where you criticize the United States.

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Post time 2008-8-23 12:20:04 |Display all floors
Kodama,

Until you can name the people in the Anti-Imperialist League, you're not saying anything. Cleveland wasn't an anomaly and Republicans couldn't even get the Congressional majority needed until after the Spanish American War. Even then, they had to do it by bending the rules. In addition, you're completely ignoring a hard fact: a domestic revolt had overthrown the monarchy and established itself as the government of Hawaii.

You said "pat on the back". I don't see any back-patting.
"Justice prevails... evil justice."

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Post time 2008-8-23 13:11:48 |Display all floors
Originally posted by interesting at 2008-8-23 12:20
Kodama,

Until you can name the people in the Anti-Imperialist League, you're not saying anything. Cleveland wasn't an anomaly and Republicans couldn't even get the Congressional majority needed until after the Spanish American War. Even then, they had to do it by bending the rules.


That's stretching the truth quite a bit. Cleveland was pushing against it, and the Democrats sided with him, but the Republicans ultimately took charge as was inevitable given the period and they approved it.

In addition, you're completely ignoring a hard fact: a domestic revolt had overthrown the monarchy and established itself as the government of Hawaii.


A domestic revolt . . . . . by Americans who intended to have Hawaii annexed and received the backing of U.S. government officials and the nearby U.S. military detachment. It's not like native Hawaiians overthrew the monarchy.

You said "pat on the back". I don't see any back-patting.


Do you know what it means to pat someone on the back? You have on many occasions touted the good the U.S. has brought through aggression or how well-intentioned U.S. acts of aggression are. I have yet to see an instance where you actually criticize an American overseas action.

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Post time 2008-8-23 17:47:51 |Display all floors
Kodama,

I'm not stretching the truth at all. I laid down the facts: Republicans couldn't get the majority required and finally got the annexation by bending the rules. The Anti-Imperialist League lobbied very successfully and anti-annexationists were not some uncommon feature of the US political landscape. I fail to see where the truth is being stretched. I think it is you who stretches the truth, or at least attempts an undue simplification of it. In any event, I suspect you were educated in the US because you seem to have the standard leftist history talking points down pat. Now, if only any actual historians agreed.....

The domestic revolt in Hawaii involved American, British and Native Hawaiians. More importantly, these were duly elected and appointed members of the Hawaiian government and the revolt only occurred because Liliuokalani wanted to create a new constitution, in an attempt to restore the authority of the monarchy lost under Kalakaua. The most important reason for revolutionaries to desire annexation wasn't US imperial ambitions but US trade protectionism: in order to have markets for the most important Hawaiian goods, trade with the US would need to occur unimpeded. There were significant business motives and I remind you that this same group had supported Kalakaua's attempt to start a Pacific Federation just decades before, one which would have contained US power.

You can't even get the history down, so why are you still arguing?

As to patting on the back: I'm not seeing those links and I'm not seeing back-patting. So far this thread has unfolded like every other time I argue against anti-Americans: I lay down an airtight historical or logical case without any actual moral judgments. I can't pat someone on the back if I'm not willing to even use the words to do so.

Now link up or GTFO.
"Justice prevails... evil justice."

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