Author: desperado123

what would happen if U.S. forces pull out right now? [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2007-3-24 04:27:37 |Display all floors

Merciful in victory.

Chang,

You are being too hard and harsh with them. Looks like using a sledge hammer to a nail. The poor blighters can hardly string two sentences together without tripping over. I plead mercy on their behalf please.

Confucius  said " Mercy must be shown in an uneven combat ".:):)

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Post time 2007-3-24 05:04:32 |Display all floors
Originally posted by mengzhi at 2007-3-24 04:27
Confucius  said " Mercy must be shown in an uneven combat ".


That has always been our problem! We usually show mercy but contrast what they do. For example, in Iraq, even when they bombed the hell out of the place they still went in and murdered, tortured and raped the poor defenceless Iraqi civilians. There was no mercy shown by these evil, twisted, perverted and deviant barbarians. They would make up songs, photograph, video and make fun of the defenceless as they were commiting the worst atrocities of all time!

Even the Nazis showed some mercy to fellow Europeans such as the French during the second world war.
I am Chinese and Proud of it!

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Post time 2007-3-24 07:53:40 |Display all floors

Strength in flexibility. The Bamboo .

But we are Chinese and Chinese are the most civilised and gentle people on earth. There is no rewards for being " less evil " is there ? Chinese must never be a push over and suffer humiliation as our ancestors did before us. The biggest mistake they committed was to assume that the laowais are equally civilised as us. They are not. So as long we make it clear that we will meet force with more force, the rest of the behaviour is that of the Chinese civilisation .

" Our strength is in our friendship and charity . "  :)

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Post time 2007-3-24 10:11:58 |Display all floors

Its not fertile soil for democracy in Iraq

Saddam was a brutal dictator becouse he had to be to keep the uncivilised iraqis from killing each other . Its sad but true, ruling iraq with an iron fist was the only way to have order . Unforchanetly for Saddam he chose to give the middle finger to America and payed the price by losing his government and ultimately his life . America has tried to give the iraqis freedom and democracy , mistakenly believing the uncivilised iraqis would agree to it , its a lesson learned , give freedom to savages and the will use it to kill each other as they are now doing in a civil war based on what brand of Islam its citizens differ on . To saddam's credit he inforced a secular society not ruled by Islam , he even had some christians in top government posts ( unthinkable in Iran) . What we are seeing in Iraq is Islam gone unchecked, this is a religion that has been hijacked by its intolerant and corrupt leaders who lead its followers into killing each other . Its these very leaders (bin laden) that have produced terrorists. Until more moderate Muslim leaders take the initiative and persuade muslims to live in peace with each other and be tolerant of the different brands of Islam as well as other religions i see no hope in Iraq regardless if America is their or not.

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Post time 2007-3-24 11:52:08 |Display all floors

Wrong Way Go Back !!

Froth,

I think your neo-con warriors have all missed the wood for the trees. It is not the Iraqis who are at fault , it is your assessment of the situation which was flawed from the start.  They are four tribes in Iraq : Kurds, Turks, Sunnis and Shiites. They have never got along since Adam was a boy and they will not get along for a long time to come.

There is a simplistic and arrogant view by the Americans that if it is good for us, it HAS to be good for you.  No. Democracy as you imagine , is an enigma to the Arabs. They are tribal and they form alliances when circumstances dictate. Nowadays they have also learned to see where the oil is.  The Americans have used a sledgehammer to hit a nail . It is wrong and it is not going to work.

The clever thing to do is to leave these disparate groups alone. If they choose to cut each other's throat, so be it. Leave the door open and await their invitation back if they wish. If that happends, the Yanks will be the liberators and the garlanded guests . Until then the only thing your soldiers are likely to get is a hand grenade .  

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Post time 2007-3-26 05:29:37 |Display all floors

Reply #33 changabula's post

Timeline of History in Iraq  
c. 6750 BCE  Pigs are domesticated in modern Iraq.  
c. 3500 BCE  Known as Mesopotamia, the world's first civilization developed in Sumer, a region now in southeastern Iraq.  
0633  Muslims conquered Syria and Iraq.  
0680  Tragedy of Karbala (in modern Iraq): Troops from Umayyad caliph Yazid I (645 - 683) murdered Husayn (c. 626 - 680) who, for the Shiites, was really the legitimate successor to the caliphate. This triggered the Shi'ites' open and violent revolt against Umayyad rule, with the anniversary of Husayn's death becoming a Shi'ite day of mourning.  
0685 - 0687  Shi'ite Muslims staged a revolt in Iraq.  
0750  The Abbasids assumed command of the Islamic world (except Spain, which fell under the control of a descendant of the Umayyad family) and moved the capital to Baghdad in Iraq.  
0945  A Shi'ite group invaded Baghdad and the Abbasid Empire was reduced to a powerless symbol. Legitimate authority reverted to the Muslim community. Until the sixteenth century, rule of Islamic civilization was decentralized with different sects being ruled by different leaders.  
0950  Al-Farabi, the greatest of the faylasufs (Arabic for philosopher), lived most of his life in Baghdad and taught that an enlightened individual could perfect his life through philosophyBaghdad  
1076  The Mizamiyya mosque-university was established in Baghdad.  
February 10, 1258  Baghdad fell to Mongol invaders The Mongols had tried and failed to take Baghdad in 1245. Now, after a series of devastating floods, the city's defenses were weakened, and Hülegü, grandson of Genghis Khan, led the victorious invasion. Thus began a long period of economic, political, and cultural decline in Iraq that was only overcome in the sixteenth century.  
March 11, 1917  British troops occupied Baghdad, Iraq.  
April 1920  At the San Remo Peace Conference of Allied Powers, French and British control over the Levant (former Turkish territory) was affirmed. Britain was given the mandate in Palestine, Transjordan and Mesopotamia (renamed Iraq, a territory created out of the Ottoman provinces of Basra, Baghdad and Mosul). France was given a mandate over Syria and Lebanon to France as well as 25% of the proceeds from Iraqi oil.  
June 1920  A tribal revolt was launched throughout Iraqi territory after Arnold Wilson, the High Commissioner to Iraq, refused to allow for the possibility any amount of Iraqi self-government. Before long Wilson was replaced by Percy Cox who adopted a more conciliatory position towards tribal leaders and the prospects of self-government.  
December 16, 1925  The League of Nations sets the border between Turkey and Iraq, putting the Mosul region in Iraq rather than Turkey despite the wishes of the local Kurdish population.  
October 03, 1932  Iraq was created as independent state under the monarchy of Faisal I. As a condition for independence from British control, Iraq had to allow an RAF presence, give Britain land and resources, and coordinate foreign policy with the British government for the next 25 years.  
September 08, 1933  King Faysal I of Iraq died. He was succeeded by his son, Ghazi, but there was much popular support among the Iraqi people for leadership under General Bakr Sidqi.  
October 1936  Counting on his great popular support and promises of social reform, General Bakr Sidqi launched a military coup in Iraq .  
April 28, 1937  Saddam Hussein, former dictator of Iraq, was born.  
August 11, 1937  General Bakr Sidqi, who came to power in Iraq in 1936 through a violent coup, was himself assassinated in Mosul.  
December 1938  Another coup was launched in Iraq by a group known as "The Seven." Nuri al-Sa'id was named Prime Minister. The following year, Nuri al-Sa'id was forced out of office by the coup leaders.  
April 01, 1941  Once again, "The Seven" announced a coup in Iraq. Rashid 'Ali al-Kaylani was made head of the government and he indicated that he intended to abide by the Anglo-Iraqi Treaty which set the conditions for Iraq's independence, but soon "The Seven" broke the treaty by refusing to allow passage of British troops through Iraqi territory and the government began to express support for Germany.  
May 02, 1941  British troops invaded Iraq to install a pro-British government. Iraqi leader Rashid 'Ali requested German support for his government, but Germany refused to intervene and 'Ali was forced to flee to Iran.  
June 1941  Despite the British occupation of Iraq, British ambassador Kinahan Cornwallis refused to allow British troops to enter Baghdad and put a stop to the looting, rioting, or pogrom that had been launched against the Jewish population. In the end, as many as 600 Jews were killed and over 2000 were injured.  
May 02, 1953  Feisal II became king of Iraq.  
February 24, 1955  Iraq, Turkey, Britain, Pakistan, and Iran signed a treaty pledging economic and military cooperation. This agreement was technically called the Central Treaty Organization (CENTO), but became more popularly known as the "Baghdad Pact" and produce quite a bit of strife in the Middle East because many nations viewed it as a thinly veiled attempt to split Arab nations apart. It was, in fact, part of the efforts of the United States to create a string of treaties around the world similar to NATO and for the purpose of containing communist expansion from the Soviet Union and China. This treaty was open to any nation except Israel and in March, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Syria joined an alliance as a counter-move.  
December 19, 1955  In Jordan, the Cabinet resigned in response to the riots that broke out in response to Jordan's participation in the Baghdad Pact - a defense alliance originally created between Turkey and Iraq against the U.S.S.R.  
March 12, 1956  In response to the pro-Western Baghdad Pact, representatives from Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Egypt signed an agreement to defend one another against aggression from Israel.  
December 01, 1956  King Faisal II of Iraq declared martial law and suspended the parliament.  
July 14, 1958  Iraq's monarchy was overthrown in a coup led by General Abd-al-Karim Qassim and Colonel Abd-al-Salam Muhammad Arif. The coup leaders declared Iraq a republic and Qassim was named prime minister. King Faysal II, Nuri As-Said and the crown prince of Iraq were all killed.  
March 08, 1959  In Iraq, an attempted coup was launched by Colonel Abdel Wahab Shawaf. Backed by units of the army, Shawaf alleged that the government of Abd-al-Karim was dominated by communists.  
March 24, 1959  Iraqi leader Abd-al-Karim announced that his country was withdrawing from the Baghdad Pact.  
October 07, 1959  Ba'athist rebels attempt a coup against Iraqi leader General Abd-al-Karim Qassim, but they fail. Qassim was injured and the driver of his car was killed. Later 78 Ba'athists were tried for their parts in the plot but one of them, Saddam Hussein, escaped from Iraq to Syria.  
June 19, 1961  Kuwait, a British protectorate since 1899, declared independence. This made leaders in Iraq very unhappy as they long harbored the hope that Kuwait would be integrated into Iraq.  
June 25, 1961  Iraqi leader General Abd-al-Karim Qassim officially called for "the return of Kuwait to the Iraqi homeland."  
September 1961  General Abd-al-Karim Qassim rejected efforts to establish political autonomy for Kurds in northern Iraq and launched a major military campaign against them.  
February 08, 1963  The Arab Socialist Baath Party (ASBP), led by Abd-al-Salam Muhammad Arif, launched a successful coup in Iraq. Arif was an Iraqi colonel who originally overthrew the Iraqi monarchy with Kassim in 1958 and installed himself as president of the new government.  
February 09, 1963  Iraqi Premier Abdel Karem Qassim was executed by firing squad by the Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party (ASBP).  
February 11, 1963  The United States granted official recognition to the new Ba'athist government of Iraq.  
November 18, 1963  The Ba'ath government of Iraq, which came to power in February of this year by assassinating Iraqi Premier Kassim, was itself overthrown by its own president, Abd-al-Salam Muhammad Arif, and a group of military officers. Arif created a new non-Ba'athist, pro-Nasserist government.  
May 13, 1965  Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, Egypt, and three other members of the Arab League severed diplomatic relations with West Germany because that country had established formal diplomatic ties with Israel.  
April 16, 1966  Abd-al-Salam Muhammad Arif, President of Iraq, died in a helicopter crash. He was succeeded by his elder brother, Major General Abd-al-Rahman Muhamad Arif.  
June 26, 1966  Iraqi Prime Minister Abd al-Rahman al-Bazzaz accepted a cease fire with the Kurds of northern Iraq, ending a 6 year conflict. Under the agreement, the Iraqi government officially recognized the Kurdish language and provided for Kurdish representation in civil government. Unfortunately, the agreement would break down by the end of the year.  
July 17, 1968  Baathists once again a coup against the Iraqi government was launched, this time ousting Abd-al-Rahman Muhamad Arif. General Ahmad Hasan al-Bakr became president and Saddam Hussein was named vice president.  
February 09, 1970  At the end of a three-day meeting, representatives of Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, and the United Arab Republic "affirm anew their determination to liberate violated Arab territory" from Israel.  
March 09, 1972  Iraq and the Soviet Union signed a 15-year treaty of "friendship and cooperation."

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Post time 2007-5-19 01:47:37 |Display all floors

Worse case scenario

Originally posted by desperado123 at 2007-3-19 11:03
First of all , i make an announcement  that i have been against  U.S. invasion of Iraq .Then we go on discuss the above question given as the title shows . what would happen if U.S. withdraw its fo ...


Worse case scenario - America goes isolationist:

America, tired of war and the international community, votes for a party with an isolationist agenda.  Once elected into power, they proceed to:

1)  Withdraws from the United Nations and other international groups (World Bank, WHO, etc.), and require said groups to leave America soil

2)  All U.S. forces are pulled out from every U.N. and N.A.T.O. supervised peacekeeping project around the world

3)  Launches a major effort to reduce America's dependence on foreign enegry resources

3)  Pursues a policy of debt repayment, consolidation, and/or forgiveness

4)  Shutting down of most embassies and consulates around the world to cut costs and/or deal with local conflicts

5)  Sereve cut backs on all visas and immigration quotas

6)  Withdrawals from all international agreements and returns to traditional tarriff and tax policies on foreign goods and services

7)  Refuse to partcipate in any regional or international conflict resolutions (i.e. Balkans, Middle East, Asian Rim), even when asked to by other nations

If parts of this sound familar, it is because it has happened before... that resulted in the rape of Nanking, the invasion of Ethopia, and the rearming of Rhineland.

TraderVic
China's Eccentric 'Uncle Laowai' from Chicago, IL

http://blog.chinadaily.com.cn/home.php?mod=space&uid=135031&do=blog&view=me&from=space

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