Author: sundayrun

Koizumi visits Yasukuni shrine for the 5th time [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2006-8-17 23:23:26 |Display all floors

Jerks Love Fighting Strawman

Why are you jerks fighting the strawman?  The shrine of dead losers itself is not an issue.  BEFORE the 14 Class A War Criminals were deified and honored in the shrine, nobody complained, even when the Jap emperor Hirohito himself went to honor the war dead.  The symbolism of honoring the Class A War Criminals in a shrine that shares space with a museum that glorifies Japan's military accomplishments, however, was such an overt slap to the victims of Jap brutality, even Hirohito himself refused to visit the shrine since the day the Class A War Criminals were moved in.  His sun, what's his name, Akahito the new empereor of Japan, also refused to visit the shrine and has never done so since the Class A War Criminals were deified there.

The shrine is not a graveyard.  Today it is a place to worship and glorify what the Class A War Criminals (their mugs are triumphantly displayed alongside other photos of past Jap imperial glory in Asia) allegedly did to glorify Japan.  Would Germany ever be allowed to put up a shrine where the likelinesses of Hitler and Himler and the SS leaders and the death camp managers would be honored, alongside German military hardware and accountrements of German military successes in WW II?  

So stop fighting the strawman, Jerks.

The Chinese are unhappy with the Japs for real and justified reasons.  Until the Japs truly act responsibly, and atone for past crimes, and fulfil their treaty obligations to destroy, remediate and compensate for the 2,000,000 pcs. of chemical warfare ordnance that their military so meticulously buried all over China, the relationship is not going anywhere.

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Post time 2006-8-18 00:35:55 |Display all floors
Originally posted by tongluren at 17-8-2006 16:23
Until the Japs truly act responsibly.......


Let's focus on Yasukuni, as that is the issue here. What is Japan supposed to do about it? I mean it. What is Japan supposed to do? According to Shintoists, once a soul is enshrined it cannot be removed.

So what's the answer? Never going there again? Blowing it up? Obviously neither of those two options are going to be acceptable.
"People are the water, the ruler is the boat; water can carry the boat, but it can also capsize it."

-- Li Shimin (2nd Tang Emperor, "Taizong")

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Post time 2006-8-18 00:57:39 |Display all floors

Rules Are Made By Man

Shintoism does not even believe in a single God that is omnipotent.  The rules are made by men.  Change them as necessary.  I am familiar with enshrining souls.  Once deified, the souls are honored, but they can be respectfully MOVED (not removed).  So move the Class A War Criminals to where they belong!!!  While they are at it, also move the implements of war from the site.

Neither China nor Korea has objected to the shrine per se.  It is the presence of the Class A War Criminals as deities that offend.

It has never been whether or not something can or cannot be done.  It has always been the arrogant Japs refusing to do it and admit they were wrong. They even refuse to do it while their own emperor refused to pray at the shrine after the war criminals were deified there.

[ Last edited by tongluren at 2006-8-18 12:59 AM ]

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Post time 2006-8-18 01:03:26 |Display all floors
Originally posted by tongluren at 17-8-2006 17:57
Shintoism does not even believe in a single God that is omnipotent.  The rules are made by men.  Change them as necessary.


I don't think Chinese can ask people to change their religion to suit their position. That is unreasonable.

While they are at it, also move the implements of war from the site.


That is rather different, because that is just the attitude of the people running the place.
"People are the water, the ruler is the boat; water can carry the boat, but it can also capsize it."

-- Li Shimin (2nd Tang Emperor, "Taizong")

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Post time 2006-8-18 01:24:17 |Display all floors

Deities Can Be Moved

It has nothing to do with changing religion.  Deities can be moved.  Temples change locations and the deitiies move with them.  Heck, Wong, Dai Xin (Big Demigod Wong) moved from Hong Kong to America around 1997, and only moved back a few years later.

In Japan over the centuries deities have been moved (yes, you have to go through the ceremonies and rigamarole to show respect before you can move the physical things representing the deities) MANY times.  

So just move out the war criminals, and the military weapons, and that would settle the shrine issue.

Then it is time to deal with the real issue of destroying, remediating and compensating for the 2,000,000 pcs. of chemical weapons buried in China, as Japan is required by treaty.

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Post time 2006-8-18 01:35:48 |Display all floors
Originally posted by tongluren at 17-8-2006 18:24
It has nothing to do with changing religion. Deities can be moved.


I think there may be two points here.

1. We're not talking about moving an individual deity. We're talking about separating a group of merged souls. Yes, I have heard of religious houses being moved. But that isn't what the proposal is here. The issue is actually separating specific souls.

2. It is up to the religion itself to decide what is possible. You can't say that there are "universal laws" that apply to all religions, because each religion is different and not governed by another.

Now if Shinto priests argued that it could happen, then that would be fine. And personally I have always thought that it would be good if this could happen. But unless there is a change of opinion inside Shinto, then this isn't going to get off the ground at all.
"People are the water, the ruler is the boat; water can carry the boat, but it can also capsize it."

-- Li Shimin (2nd Tang Emperor, "Taizong")

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Post time 2006-8-18 01:58:35 |Display all floors

What The Heck Are You Mumbling About You Jap Apologist

Even the Japs do not argue this silliness of "merged souls."  Which orifice did you pull that one out from?  Each of the dead losers honored in the shrine is an individual deity.  That's what the "Shin" of Shinto is - the way of the gods, each deified dead loser being a god, to be honored and worshipped.  There is no "merging."  Merged into what?  You mean like the anime transformers?  You are so silly.

Go look at the photos online fo the shrine of losers.  Each of those deified has his own slot, and the 14 Class A War Criminals have really prominent placement and big "real estate."  That is what is irking.  The Japs have gone out of their way to make it a point that you cannot miss the Class A War Criminals if you go to the shrine.  

"Religion" is between a man and his God or gods.  It cannot trump human relationships.  

It is indeed true that Japan can choose to do whatever it does.  It is also true that there are and will be consequences.

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