Author: mencius

China and Japan pave way to better relations [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2006-6-15 16:20:26 |Display all floors

#21

why do you think the focus was on just the 14? is it beyond you to think that the essence of the matter has got more to do than just the 14?

secondly, it is a mite easy to cross the chasm by spinning around the word 'aggression'; suddenly, as you've written, 'aggression' by members of one country on another, regardless of era, has moved to be equated to "ag-gre-ssion within a country";  you must be deluded to think that people are so easy to fall for the specious trap of moving the focus point from where it should be to where it will lead to other things that you can then proceed to attack - why not stay focused on the points in matter first, and let's take it from there?  

Paranoid? are you suggesting that those who year in and out tried to change their history books are not espousing the sentiments indirectly of pre-war japan, or would you next try to say it's only a small percentage? why not try a little bit of true humanism - " i, mencius of bbs-chinadaily hereby declare those japanese scumbags who hide behind court jesters should reverse and recompense through our national coffers, as post-war Germany had done for the Jews, the comfort women of Asia?

Let me put it bluntly in case you miss what people are trying to get at in so many posts; it's the neocons we're  after; and your socalled modern japanese who resemble the Chinese and other asians in so many ways are no help in the matter of showing japan's national resolve of true contrition - because they have remained as mute and conciliatory towards those neocons as, well, you, and the likes of 'iculie' and others.  And since these neocons continue to run the policies of japan, they'll continue to show their true colours that run contrary to reconciliation.  

It seems rather odd that one who espouses pungent humanism can fail so alarmingly fast to see the heart of the contention.  Elsewhere it has been written that the reason the japanese cannot show true depth about the past is as much because they were not given a full education on that matter as it was because they could only equate that era with ONLY their own pains.

Those who forget the crimes they commit onto others in other countries, may well be cursed to repeat them, especially when they're now trying to seek a greater role on the world stage.

i write this for the central committee member who had over lunch with me one day said those neocons were 'tai kuo furn'.

I hate repeating but it seems nothing has sunk in: politicians from a country who murdered their innocent neighbours should be the last people to talk about internal affairs of others.

don't you think so?

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Post time 2006-6-15 17:21:17 |Display all floors
Originally posted by markwu at 15-6-2006 09:20
why do you think the focus was on just the 14? is it beyond you to think that the essence of the matter has got more to do than just the 14?


I know that's not the only issue. But if the issue of Yasukuni is the 14 and not the millions of others there, then that would have to show that the matter of war crimes is condensed into those guys. Otherwise the Chinese government would be demanding Yasukuni was pulled down.

why not stay focused on the points in matter first, and let's take it from there?


Well we're already off-topic. The news report is about better Sino-Japanese relations (potentially), but some people had to come in to focus on the bad rather than the potential good. And that doesn't even include tong's random comments - where's your criticism of him/her?

Quite frequently people are happy to move the discussion on to what they talk about, but when someone want to change it againt to something they don't want to talk about they get annoyed. The point icuile made is relevant because it damages China's case and undermines the arguments of people who want to focus on the issue of Japan's past. If someone says they want to talk about the past to heal old wounds, but then argues talking about a different, but more recent and also "unresolved" issue would only reopen old wounds, then that rather undermines his/her argument.

Paranoid? are you suggesting that those who year in and out tried to change their history books are not espousing the sentiments indirectly of pre-war japan, or would you next try to say it's only a small percentage?


Well it rather depends who you're talking about, as well as what you're talking about. There are people that want to whitewash history lessons. But if you're saying that is the objective of the government itself then I would have to disagree with you.

why not try a little bit of true humanism


1. I doubt very much that I could get you to make a similar statement about something I felt strongly on.

2. I have previously indicated what I feel, but people just ignore it because it doesn't suit their POV of me.

3. I will say that I hope Japan comes up with an apology that is acceptable to its neighbours, can finally teach the war history in an honest manner, clear up those chemical munitions in China (which it is doing) and compensate the comfort women & other surviving victims. Though I'm not so sure the latter point will ever be resolved.

But I'm quite sure that will be ignored, just as it has been every time I said anything like it.

it's the neocons we're after


Then why do people here so frequently talk about "Japan" and "the Japanese", rather than indicating they have a gripe with only a small number of people? And why do they use tems such as "Japs", "nips", etc? Whatever they may believe often their anger becomes indiscriminate.

your socalled modern japanese who resemble the Chinese and other asians in so many ways are no help in the matter of showing japan's national resolve of true contrition - because they have remained as mute and conciliatory towards those neocons as, well, you, and the likes of 'iculie' and others


What exactly are they supposed to do? There isn't a "Japanese apology party" for one thing. And some Japanese have always campaigned for better school teaching of the war, a bett er apology, etc. But what can I say - most people are somewhat selfish and want to get on with their lives. Foreign policy rarely strongly affects the attitudes of the public in any country. I've never heard of a case where an apology/compensation for war crimes for a country like Germany or Japan has been achieved by pressure from the bottom-up. From what I've read about it's always from the top.

And I will say this, the very fact Chinese stay silent about those domestic issues, especially ones that are still going on, because they want to "get on with their lives" should be a good example of this.

Those who forget the crimes they commit onto others in other countries


I notice you said "in other countries". Why have that caveat?

[ Last edited by mencius at 2006-6-15 10:37 AM ]
"People are the water, the ruler is the boat; water can carry the boat, but it can also capsize it."

-- Li Shimin (2nd Tang Emperor, "Taizong")

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Post time 2006-6-15 19:17:14 |Display all floors
Originally posted by mencius at 2006-6-15 19:21
I notice you said "in other countries". Why have that caveat? ...

Oh surely that caveat would be to preclude the "crimes on others" allegation to be turned against those who killed millions of their own people.
Now I know you, Mencius, understand that, and Mark Wu understands that, and I know you've asked this rhetorical question to raise this issue.
But I take the bait on behalf of those for whom your comment is a little too subtle, and because I don't reckon Mark will answer your question!

JB
"他不是救星, 他是一个非常淘气男孩" - Monty Python

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Post time 2006-6-15 20:03:46 |Display all floors
i repeat for the last time:

"I hate repeating but it seems nothing has sunk in: politicians from a country who murdered their innocent neighbours should be the last people to talk about internal affairs of others."

and i end this post with:

i was 51 some days ago and am too tired to joist with anyone today, having returned from travelling some thousands of li's, so i'll end with this small vision from the heart:

whatever we're discussing in this forum will be overtaken by events - a rising wave of humanity that will change the entire paradigm of what this world can be.

the japanese people and their politicians know this; so do other external parties riveted by the need to maintain existing power-arrangements while harbouring mistrust alloyed to fear marred by greed; the future of Asia, at the least, will be determined by how the polarities and tangential forces will play out.

but in the end, it's about people.

and so many bloodlines in China, Korea and other countries in the rest of Asia have been severed by the rapacious greed and criminal brutalities within living memory of a militaristic japan .

how are the people of Asia today to look at a japanese with greater kindness when japan's neocons continue to do things or exercise malignant neglect or utter rubbish that remind everyone, including their own kind and cult, of that epoch when entire bloodlines were extinguished by a barbaric fascism that is only replaced today by hypocrisy of their politicians, courts, parliament and media, and don't waste my time to ask for further elaboration on what you and you and you already know what those hypocritical items are.

so it remains to say that if in the end it's about people, then any reconciliation between japan and China which draw their existence from the people must stand on a clear, unflinching and substantial acknowledgement of the heinousness of japan's past -  so that legalistic arguments that try to differentiate past from present cannot possibly prevail when you talk about peoples of two or more countries.

having said that, this is from the heart:   the Chinese and japanese peoples can be the best of friends and neighbours and the greatest value-creators of the 21st century;  there's so much that both can do to help each other, shorne of fear and anger, but to reach that stage may need the essential points i and others have tried to make in this thread;  the first steps will be hard, but once the japanese neocons are out of the way, the rest of the journey can be one helluva exciting roller-coaster ride for both.

there are many admirable qualities in a good japanese man (and you can exclude their yakuza abd two-thirds of their LDP permanently from this category) but these qualities can only surface if they are NOT founded on hypocrisy, malicious intent and most of all, a sense of japanese superiority over the Chinese, something which has reared up too often by too many on those islands to be excused as happenstances or fear-borne reactionism.

the japanese nation to the last digit of their population should expunge that ugly part once and for all in the road to reconciliation.

i am tired and stop now.

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Post time 2006-6-15 20:12:12 |Display all floors

emu

I think your prediction about mark's response was correct.
"People are the water, the ruler is the boat; water can carry the boat, but it can also capsize it."

-- Li Shimin (2nd Tang Emperor, "Taizong")

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Post time 2006-6-15 21:06:10 |Display all floors
Originally posted by mencius at 2006-6-15 22:12
I think your prediction about mark's response was correct.

Unfortunately yes.

The alleged intransigence of the Japanese appears matched only by the Chinese.

JB
"他不是救星, 他是一个非常淘气男孩" - Monty Python

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Post time 2006-6-15 21:11:00 |Display all floors

ok

one for the road.

#26
for a while i had figured mencius was using legalism to hide some artificial humanism.

now by his comment i can conclude his hidden agenda is nothing short of the destruction of order in China.

for pretenders to intellectual ferment such as this, he writes i ignore, i write he replies i ignore.

so be it - he is now exposed permanently.

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