Author: masterkung

India's Dalai Dilemma [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2006-3-25 06:02:21 |Display all floors
Originally posted by lobsang at 2006-3-25 01:09
For those following up on the news of the holy monk trotting around the world in his Gucci shoes, it might interest you to find out how dissents are dealt with within his Gelukba Sect that he heads. Just key in "Dorji Shugden" into Google and find plenty to read.


Yep, there's plenty to read. Looks like both sides of the argument too, something sadly lacking on CD.


Originally posted by lobsang at 2006-3-25 01:09
My short response to your irrelevant observations can only be: 对你这种不学无术、鱼目混珠、头发胡子一把抓的言论,有识之士,只能嗤之以鼻! ...

I have not tried to pass off fake articles.
My comments on your post was on your language and phrasing with which you were minimising Chinese-Tibetan differences and highlighting Tibetan-Indian differences, geographically,geologically and ethnically.

Your use of "emotive" language in that way has no intellectual or factual value and is not a substitute for debate.
You appear quite keen to condemn societies for the outdated cultural practices in Tibet and India, when it suits your argument, but conveniently ignore the facts of similarly distasteful practices elsewhere.

Before you contemptuously dismiss others viewpoints, you should be a little more consistent in the values you express in your own.

Lobsang. Em, e tok pek pek bilong bulamakau-man.


Cheers

JB
"他不是救星, 他是一个非常淘气男孩" - Monty Python

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Post time 2006-3-25 07:03:02 |Display all floors

Could have fooled me!

Since when did they start speaking Indonesian in the Himalayas Emucentral? The discussion was centred around the Himalayas one would have thought? By the way is your Indonesian vocabulary, written in king-sized alphabets, enough to fill up the rucksack on your back?

You may impress a small parish around you with your few weeks in Nepal as a tourist, with little or no knowledge of the language and the people.  It will however take a lot more to achieve the same effect on this panel. Leveraging on the advantage of your mother tongue alone is not enough. Real substance is needed, I am afraid. The world is little larger than just 20 million people. Our bustling municipality of Shanghai alone is 17 million. There is a word for you: 井底青蛙

Emucentral, Kerang  mi mareh, kerang khi reh!

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Post time 2006-3-25 11:40:59 |Display all floors
emucentral

I can't tell a problem from lobsang's post.

As far as I know, traditionally, Tibet was in two parts – Tibet in the mountains, and Tibet on the closer location to Han's areas – in current Sichuan, Gang Su, and Qinghai.

The Tibetans live closer to Han areas, have much more influence from Han, and they do have inter-marriages from thousand years ago.  The Tibetans who live closer to Han areas, did not been controlled by the Kings in Tibet, but they were granted a title of "Tu Si", which is similar to "chief"  from Chinese emperors until CCP took over this area.

This is the reality in past thousand years. This part of Tibet was controlled by China much earlier than entire Tibet.

But the social system they had was very different from Han's, as lobsang mentioned, they had a sort of caste system similar to other part of Tibet and India's, I mean the old India.

I see nothing wrong from lobsang's post. Even the ethnic, Tibet and Han are both Mongols. I am surprise you said you can easily tell the difference between Han and Tibet. I can not.

I am Han. If I stand with a Tibetan and a Cantonese, anyone would say I am much closer to the Tibetan, not the Cantonese, note here, Cantonese are all Han. Not sure how could you tell the difference between Han and Tibet.

Of course Tibetans are very different from Indians, you don't need any knowledge, just look at them for 2 seconds, you will know why.

Why is it a problem when lobsang mentioned that?

It is interesting to compare India's caste system with China's separation between urban residents and rural residents.

Yes, there is a divide between the two, but It was not designed for one group taking advantage to another. In fact, in the first 10 or more years (1950s-1960s), the urban residents didn't have any advantage to rural residents. Many people came back villages from cities because in many part of China, village life is better than city's.

The real difference was happened between 1960s to 1990s. In this 30 years, urban living standard became better than rural areas. Rural residents no longer had a chance to work in the cities thus they have to stay in villages for much less income compare to the urban residents.

It is of course unfair, but it was not designed for that. In fact, Mao and his senior colleague's relatives were mostly rural residents, and their relatives, as any other rural residents, had no chance to become urban citizens too.

The divide between urban and rural residents are not for who takes who's advantage, or who is upper class than whom. It was simply a communism ideology – everyone is fixed in a certain job, which as the same as other communism ideology, is a failure.

As a same ideology, the moving between cities are not allow neither in this 30 years. It of course had no any meaning of "class", it is simply a stupid communism idea.

It is unfair to say it equals to caste system.

From sometimes in 1990s, the divide between the two became meaningless, because no one in the cities is secured on job, the supply of food is fully marketed, real estate is marketed too. So, if a farmer wants, he can choose live in city, if he wants, he can buy a house in city.

Actually, when an urban resident lost his job, he will live more miserable than a farmer.

Does this sound like another version of caste system?

[ Last edited by luf2004 at 2006-3-25 01:14 PM ]

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Post time 2006-3-26 10:56:28 |Display all floors
Originally posted by lobsang at 2006-3-25 09:03
Since when did they start speaking Indonesian in the Himalayas Emucentral? The discussion was centred around the Himalayas one would have thought? By the way is your Indonesian vocabulary, written  ...

It was PNG neo Melanesian, but your confusion is understandable.

JB
"他不是救星, 他是一个非常淘气男孩" - Monty Python

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Post time 2006-3-26 11:09:58 |Display all floors
Originally posted by luf2004 at 2006-3-25 13:40
I am Han. If I stand with a Tibetan and a Cantonese, anyone would say I am much closer to the Tibetan, not the Cantonese, note here, Cantonese are all Han. Not sure how could you tell the difference between Han and Tibet. ...


Hi Luf.
A few years ago when I visited Nepal I did see many many Tibetan refugees (I wonder what they were fleeing from, maybe Lobsang can assist).

Obviously the Tibetans look different to the Nepalis (mainly in the Kathmandu and Pokhara areas I visited).
Possibly the Tibetans there are from a different part of Tibet, further away from Han areas, but they did not look like Chinese people to me.
Just like people from different parts of Africa have different looks or skin complexion. People from different parts of Europe have different looks & complexions too.

It is interesting what you say about someone comparing yourself with a Cantonese.
I wonder if diet may have something to do with it too.
I imagine that HK people and areas of GD province, close to HK have had a greater variety of cuisine (western, Indian etc) available which may have some effect. I am not suggesting any one cuisine type is superior to another, just that it's different.

I read somewhere that the people of Japan have gotten taller since WW2 because their diets have changed and included more red meat.

Cheers
JB
"他不是救星, 他是一个非常淘气男孩" - Monty Python

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Post time 2006-3-27 00:11:36 |Display all floors
emucentral

If I understand you correctly, you never come to China, am I correct?

I can understand if you referred Cantonese as Han since most overseas Chinese in past 100 years are Cantonese. But Cantonese is only small part of Chinese.

Han, is not a ethnic concept, but a culture thing. Han is bond by culture, not blood.

When we had the word of Han, the Cantonese mostly were not in China territory yet, they were still tribal people. They joined Han later on, and they became Han.

The same story happened in many places in China.

As you mentioned, the people look differently in Europe, Han is the same, they look differently from province to province. In Northern China, people look much more like Mongolian; in Canton –GD – people look more like Vietnamese. But we are all Han.

Tibetans, as far as I read, their ancestors were from Northern China, they are very close to Mongolians, of course they are very close to Northern Han.

Han is a culture thing, not ethnic. This is a common mistake been made by foreigners.

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Post time 2006-3-27 15:36:35 |Display all floors
Originally posted by luf2004 at 2006-3-27 02:11
If I understand you correctly, you never come to China, am I correct?

I can understand if you referred Cantonese as Han since most overseas Chinese in past 100 years are Cantonese. But Cantonese is only small part of Chinese.

Han, is not a ethnic concept, but a culture thing. Han is bond by culture, not blood.. ...


Luf,
Thankyou for your explanation of Han being a cultural definition, rather than an ethnic one.

I have been to Hong Kong & Macau a couple of times but only a short day trip into Guangdong a couple of years ago. I intend to take a longer trip to China in the future to see more of your great country.

As to the different appearances between Tibetans and Chinese, let me clarify (in view of your definition of Han) that I refer to the Chinese people I have seen in Hong Kong and the many people of mainland Chinese & Cantonese origin who live in my home town of Melbourne.

Cheers

JB
"他不是救星, 他是一个非常淘气男孩" - Monty Python

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