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"How do I make VALUE & needs clear?, On sex before marriage" [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2005-8-12 17:42:37 |Display all floors
Here the original post copied below may give some good thoughts.
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I’m 23 year old female and frequently attract attention (mostly unwanted!) from men. From my past relationship I have come to the conclusion that I do not want sex before marriage. Not for any religious reasons, just really so I can be sure that my partner likes me for me and is not pandering to this sex-obsessed promiscuity that seems to permeate our culture through the media and its dissemination of ideology.

I’m not anti-sex, or anti-desire, it’s just that I value mental appreciation over physical attraction. Attraction is important to some extent certainly – but I seem to give less value to looks than other people do (probably from the frustration of being judged on my appearance and never feeling valued for my interior).

I am now consciously aware that I have not been direct enough in the past to make these feelings known or respected. I have also erred in not being clear to men that I only want a friendship and not a relationship (not that the onus should be upon me and the male should have some degree of emotional intelligence but I fear this is not generally the case). Given that I want my next relationship to be (hopefully) my final marriage partner, as I feel ready and settled now to pursue this, I want to be able to filter out (as much as I can – I know this is no guarantee) as much of the time-wasters as much as possible. So…

I was wondering (a male perspective would help) how I can make someone aware of these values at the BEGINNING of a friendship in a light but impacting way? Any particular words or phrases I could use?

I don’t want to get all serious and seem paranoid or make the mistake of implication but at the same time I need someone to be able to take this on board and treat me like a respectable lady. I really want to find someone with the same values but I don't know where to start.

Flaneur  [ www.wwwyou.org]

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Post time 2005-8-12 17:46:24 |Display all floors

the response she got

Hi F,

You must realize that it may take some time to find your mate, so there are sure to be a few time-wasters encountered during the process. The only way you can find someone is to look.

If there are certain activities that you enjoy, looking there might help you find someone with similar interests and values. I know three people now who have found their spouses by using internet matching services. They all seem happy. The service matches people based on interests, values and compatibility.

When you date someone, there's no reason why you can't be upfront about your desire to abstain from a sexual relationship. Something like "I want to be friends first" might work.

Just a word of advice, consider that it may be wise to find out if you are compatible sexually prior to marrying. You may discover not long after marriage that the man whom you thought was a wonderful friend and mate just doesn't do it for you in bed. There's no reason to have sex after just a few dates. But if he is serious about you and hangs in there for weeks and months and seems right in every other way, I think it's a good idea to make sure of the sexual aspect.

Good luck, F, I'm sure the right guy is out there!

DC

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Post time 2005-8-12 17:48:30 |Display all floors

the others

The only solution to this problem is to choose a man that demonstrates clearly (through his behaviour rather than words) that he holds the same value. There are men out there who are like that. Even the most well-meaning person would find it difficult to ignore having sex till marriage unless that is what they originally wanted themself. You don't want a man that will not have sex just to please you. He would resent it if he wanted to have sex. It is never a good idea to go into a relationship wanting to change a man. It is not kind: neither to yourself or the man. If he wants to do something, or not do something, he will make that decision either way.
In any case, though I respect your moral approach, I believe that it is a good idea to have sex before marriage because that is the only way that you can know if you and your partner are sexually compatible. It is not unevolved to enjoy some of the closest, creative romantic moments whilst making love/children, and therefore it is important to prevent a marriage that doesn't work because the partners cannot express themselves sexually. That is my advice. It is more realistic than waiting till marriage (unless you have some sexual experience with the person before marriage of course, and can at least rule out him having a non-existant penis). Call it superficial but you cannot run away from the nature of being a person. In any case, it is no crime to be sexual.

Earth-born

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Post time 2005-8-12 17:49:37 |Display all floors

her reply

Thank you for both of your replies.

I had hoped that I would find like-minded people through my hobbies (which I do for their own sake and not for dating purposes) but this is just not the case. I think it’s more emotional intelligence I am after and certain values which probably belong to a rare breed. I find many religious types with overlapping values but, given that I am not religious, our core motivations are quite different. I am generally quite cynical about internet dating but I am open minded enough to have a look at any recommended sites if DC is allowed to tell me the names of them here.

If I am acting through fear, I think I am scared of stating “I just want to be friends” and then having my boundaries trampled upon in a moment of uncontrollable lustfulness from the other person – which I feel I should not ever be responsible for. I have fear in getting attached to a person, putting my emotional energy into the relationship, only to feel betrayed by my wishes being disrespected. It’s like trusting someone with my purse and asking them not to spend my money, but then they go ahead and spend it anyway. Down to respect and boundaries I guess.

I really appreciate the advice from both of you regarding sexual compatibility before marriage and this is something I have thought about at great length. Firstly, I don’t think that sex is so important to me that the absence or poor quality of such would ruin my marriage. I believe that sex is a really great way of showing love and affection but there are other ways of showing these feelings and there are always ways around the logistical problems. However, as I have never been in a “can’t have” position I could not say for certain this would not affect me - I may go nuts, feel rejected, who knows? So perhaps an imposed indefinite abstinence in the relationship would suffice to show me of their seriousness and values. I don’t want someone just proposing to me just so they can “get laid”, nor do I want a guy who has problems with intimacy. How to achieve this is another matter – I feel that so many guys my own age seem to value grossly different things to me and it’s hardly light conversation or appropriate (I think) to start grilling them on their attitudes to sex on a first date (not that I'd know, I haven't been on a date for years!). Still, I suppose it’s worth knowing the answers before any relationship forms, then it’s a case of finding out their beliefs without making it obvious so they can’t lie, or do it in such a way it doesn’t seem like a Spanish inquisition. Any thoughts?

F

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Post time 2005-8-12 17:52:04 |Display all floors

and Earth-born replied

You took my comments pretty well! It always surprises me...

I don't really know what you are worrying about. If a man has uncontrollable lust, feels the urge and does it without your consent then you are refering to rape. I have some experience with men only wanting me for one thing. That used to happen when I was (more attractive!) needed some acceptance and wanted closeness myself. Men tend to pick up on girls that are looking for someone to give them attention, and though I am not saying you are necessarily like this, either you are very good-looking or giving off the vibes that say "I'm an easy lay". Girls that have an air of self-respect don't have their ground trampled on so much as less-assertive ones, even though they will be ogled as men are often like that. And even so, in my case men at least tried persistently to persuade me (sad gits) and I only has one man try to physically help himself without my permission.

You would be surprised. There are men out there with self control. I don't know how to find them but my boyfriend is Spanish and he seems to have a very traditional attitude. So I would recommend perhaps going with someone with a conscious moral code, religious or otherwise.

By the way, once you have found the right person whether you are/aren't married, as a woman you have to master the art of letting a man take control of you in bed. That is only enjoyable/successful when there is a great amount of trust and love, and when it is done is the most beautiful thing that words can't discribe to know that a good man DOES love a woman and care as much about her as himself. That's more than affection or lust and should be considered a great opportunity to bring together a good relationship. Never go with a man that only cares about his own enjoyment. It'll generally be a pretty bad experience in the bedroom, leaving you feeling like you have been used or disrespected. The right kinda guy isn't out to protect, not disrespect. Oh, I've coined a phrase...



Let me try and write that again:

The right kind of man is out to PROTECT, not disrespect!!! Hurrah!!

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Post time 2005-8-12 17:53:58 |Display all floors

Guest added his/her view

I must endorse the views of fellow contributors, in fact I would go further. I think it is almost naive to consign sex to 'after marriage'. And if you cant recognise emotional intelligence from conversation and shared interests, you wont recognise it in a man who may be a wee timid fellow, grateful that he wont have to disclose his sexual naivety until his wedding day, and thus happy to oblige your stereotyping.

If we are talking about making love as opposed to sex, and there is a world of difference, ensure that you and any partner you meet are compatible. Differences in this department are fundamental to marriage, and if you meet someone you love, the pain of not being able to enjoy that sensation through the intensity that love making can provide can be soul destroying and destructive of your partnership.

And if you arent yet well versed in the delights of intimacy, ask yourself whether you have any deep seated reasons for holding the views that you have. If you were religious I would fully understand your reservations, but you say you are not. Your body can be a wonderful source of pleasure which neednt be sordid or cheap, even if shared with a partner who you do not foresee as a future partner, so long as you show one another mutual respect. Think of sex more like a gastronomic meal, a basic human necessity that can be enjoyed at a host of different levels without the conclusion that you must be cheapening yourself through indulgence.

If sex doesnt work in relationships, it WILL reveal itself in time. Find out your needs, and your partner's before you have children, and an apparently contented existence. Having sex with someone after several months is ample time to gauge emotional intelligence and sincerity, and if a man who is not religious isnt desperate by then to consummate his heart felt affection for you, I' would have real misgivings, rather than the other way around.

Sex is as natural as breathing. Would you hold your breath for as long as you could for any good reason other than being in a freshly manured field? I didnt think so. Now apply that reasoning to another basic normal human action.

Oh and if you are fixed on your values and not open to second thoughts, the way to tell someone is unambiguously and early on, nothing more, nothing less.

G

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Post time 2005-8-12 17:56:52 |Display all floors

CJ has his deep thoughts to express

Hi,

I'm afraid I feel I must disagree entirely with that last post. Respectfully, I think you are making some pretty unjustified claims about sex, because they fit with your own particular philosophy. You described sex as both a “wonderful source of pleasure” and a “basic human necessity”, but I really don’t see how it can be both. Food, water and shelter are the basic human necessities, whereas chocolate ice cream, TV shows and, I believe, sex are firmly in the category of ‘indulgences’. I understand why you would firmly assert that sex is an integral part of a conventional romantic relationship, but you can’t assume that such a relationship is the definitive form of happiness. Most couple’s sex lives decline in excitement and intensity as, say, a marriage progress, so does that necessarily mean that they are becoming less happy? Must they spice things up and resort to kinkier activities to keep the relationship together? Or perhaps they are just flogging a dead horse that is self-indulgent desire, when in fact a different kind of love based upon a bond of personalities would sustain without the need to try and desperately prologue a waning sex life.

Now most people will probably assume that they have experienced such a close personality bond with a partner, and that sex merely brought it to another level, however, I would ask how can you be sure that you actually have experienced exactly what Flaneur seems to be yearning for? After all, it is impossible to conceptualise what you have never experienced, and so our brains will merely relate such a description to the closest match from our own life experiences. But who’s to say it’s the same thing, or that we have the slightest conception of what they are describing? Who’s to say someone else is not describing something on a whole other level from the one that we are currently thinking on?

How this relates to the original point is that I believe it is a mistake to directly compare what Flaneur is describing to our own experiences of romantic relationships. This is because when you have a sexual attraction to someone, then time spent in their company can feel like bliss; they can feel like your sole-mate and that you will always enjoy spending time with them, but I think this is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the kind of connection that she was describing. What I am referring to is the circumstance where the mere sharing of thoughts, feelings and ideas with another are sufficient to provide unlimited hours of enthralling conversation; where crux’s like TV or music are not required; where conversational pauses are few; and where discussion rarely ventures into the realm of the impersonal and uninsightful, i.e. clothes, make up, celebrities, gossip etc. Such a thing does exist and if you have experienced it then you are lucky but you are also in a minority. However, to taste such a fulfilment makes sex seem like a paltry consolation, and certainly not a critical element in the maintenance of this kind of bond.

In stark contrast, the thrill of the romantic connection is a relatively fleeting sensation. It is a blissful high that comes not from bonding with the ‘soul’ with whom you are sharing a bed, but from the vain gratification that comes from being around someone who adores you. Its like a drug; we all desperately want to worshipped and cherished in such an intense way because on some fundamental level we believe we deserve it, because ultimately we all adore ourselves. Little else feels better than a conformation that this self-love is well founded than by its reinforcement from the ‘love’ of another person. However, I’m afraid this is an unjustified love because as human being we are all riddled with selfishness and poverty, and few individuals are in fact ‘good’ enough people to merit such unrestricted reverence. And in time, as we start to identify aspects of these latent deficiency in our partners, we slowly start to lose respect for their opinions as we realise that they are in fact human and not divine. Their affections then lose that initial thrill, we become accustomed to them in all ways (including physically) and the sex inevitable declines in quality.

Tragic perhaps, but only depressing if you are (1) seeking utter fulfilment in another person and (2) making sex a critical component of that relationship. A physical copulation may well bring about an intense feeling of emotional closeness with another, but I believe that souls can only be brought together by unfettered mutual comprehension (i.e. in flowing communication like conversation) because after all, a soul is not a physical thing and so cannot ‘bond’ through physical means. Mutual emotional intimacy brought about by physical stimulation is a momentary phenomenon, and it is only the more ‘friend-like’ connections formed between couples that will stand the test of time.

Therefore, if I could summarise all of this into two golden rules they would be as follows:

(1) Sex is unimportant and perhaps ultimately antithetical to an insightful relationship.
(2) ALL non-insightful relationships will inevitably decline and disintegrate in the long term.

CJ

www.wwwyou.org
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