Author: bendent

hey come here chinese ppl [Copy link] 中文

Rank: 6Rank: 6

Post time 2005-7-8 23:16:18 |Display all floors

Re: Head-swell Swede.

mengzhi wrote: "If only it is that simple my Swedish friend , every country in the world would be super rich by now!"

It IS that simple. Any state that isn't plagued by war or internal conflicts can achieve riches in a short time implementing capitalism. Why do you think the majority of African nations are still so utterly behind the rest of the world? Because they are in constant war with each other, because there is heavy corruption in the state apparatus, because there is no capitalist structure (property rights and so on).

The simplicity of the fact is proven easily by studying post-war Germany and Japan. Or make a comparison between North and South Korea, two countries with the same type of culture, natural resources, climate, and so on.

mengzhi wrote: "the Chinese invented enterpreneureship. We have been dealing with trade and commerce when your forebears were still clad in bear skin,rampaging and raping their way across the icy seas of Europe."

Yeah, and the Iraqis invented the wheel, but they didn't take the invention further (that is, they did not invent the car, the tyre, the hydraulic balancing system, and so on). Likewise, the Chinese invented gunpowder, but didn't take it any further (powerful weapons, rockets, a trip to the moon, mars and beyond the solar system).

Capitalism is a model where entrepeneurship is REWARDED. Thus there is incentive for ever more inventions, and given that inventions in most cases demand more and more capital, this is more important than ever.

If the capitalist model leads to democracy, which it usually does with time when the middle class demands political change, there is even better net effect of the capitalism.

It IS that simple. Have a look around the world.

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Rank: 8Rank: 8

Post time 2005-7-9 09:49:09 |Display all floors

The stuff of stubborness.

liangzai is now determined to win at all cost rather than be correct. I shall conceed that you win. However I have a couple of your glaring misconceptions to focus upon.

Capitalism is rampant throughout the world ( and ' democracy ' too ). It is spread from Brazil to Zimbwabe. It is the economic system of the Philippines, Indonesia, Mexico and Russia. What happened to the simplistic formula to untold riches which you espoused to ? Germany and France are two of the stalwarts of capitalism and they are presiding over 10% of unemployment. The USA , the fountain of laissez faire and liberal capitalism ( read anything goes capitalism ) is losing milliions of jobs off shore and is burdened with the greatest trade deficit of their history. You may be mistaking capitalism with exploitation ; the stuff of the good old colonial days where natural resources including human labour is commandeered without payment. Of course a colonising nation could get rich easily that way. However that is ancient history now. The new form of exploitation is that seen in Iraq. Oil oil oil !

China is now the most dynamic economy in the world , bar NONE ! It is achieved by blood , sweat and toil and let no man deny that. It will continue to be so because we have the foresight and application to carve out a niche for ourselves. We need NO foreigners and their advice thank you very much. Have a nice day my Swedish friend.

Confucius said " Stubborness mistaken for correctness is a crime. "

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Rank: 6Rank: 6

Post time 2005-7-9 12:33:20 |Display all floors

Re: The stuff of stubborness.

mengzhi wrote: "liangzai is now determined to win at all cost rather than be correct."

I only want the truth and the facts to prevail. Let others determine who "wins".

mengzhi wrote: "Capitalism is rampant throughout the world ( and ' democracy ' too ). It is spread from Brazil to Zimbwabe. It is the economic system of the Philippines, Indonesia, Mexico and Russia. What happened to the simplistic formula to untold riches which you espoused to?"

Let's see... unless there is no property rights, there is no capitalism. In Zimbabwe there are no property rights; the government is seizing white people's properties in blind hatred. The Philippines and Indonesia have internal clashes of a religious nature; such atrocities will ruin any economy, since the capital available will FLEE to more stable territory (outside the Philippines and Indonesia). Brazil, Mexico and Russia are three examples of states with heavy corruption; capitalism is hampered by corruption. In Russia, news papers and television stations are being bought up or prohibited by the state, and oil barons and other people with economic power are persecuted by Putin himself.

mengzhi wrote: "Germany and France are two of the stalwarts of capitalism and they are presiding over 10% of unemployment. The USA , the fountain of laissez faire and liberal capitalism (read anything goes capitalism) is losing milliions of jobs off shore and is burdened with the greatest trade deficit of their history."

Yeah. But they are mature economies. They can't grow as fast as China. And in any economy you will see fluctuations between good and bad times. The bad times mean unemployment and restructuring of the economy (consider the 70s: the ship industry and the textile industry were outsourced to Asia, and Japan and the US shifted toward electronics and the personal computer boom). Germany is a special case, since it has the burden of the formerly communist run East Germany to deal with. An unemployment rate of 5-10% is normal. If it reaches 50%, as under the depression in the US, or as it is in Shanghai for young people in their 20s and 30s, it is alarming and threatening to society. Then you have to change stuff (lower taxes, stimulate the economy and so on, like with the New Deal under the US depression),

mengzhi wrote: "You may be mistaking capitalism with exploitation ; the stuff of the good old colonial days where natural resources including human labour is commandeered without payment. Of course a colonising nation could get rich easily that way. However that is ancient history now. The new form of exploitation is that seen in Iraq. Oil oil oil!"

I can't vouch for the US imperialist deeds. Where is Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Switzerland, Holland, Germany and so on doing such exploitation?

mengzhi wrote: "China is now the most dynamic economy in the world , bar NONE ! It is achieved by blood , sweat and toil and let no man deny that. It will continue to be so because we have the foresight and application to carve out a niche for ourselves."

China is growing very fast, but from a low level. In ten years time, the Chinese economy will surpass that of the US, although China still has five times the population. Thus there will still more room to grow for many years. But sooner or later, China's economy will plane out and mature, and it will face the same problems as seen in the mature economies of the West. Then the Chinese laborers will conmplain that India is taking their jobs.

mengzhi wrote: "We need NO foreigners and their advice thank you very much."

Are you a spokesperson for the government? If not, just please state your own opinion.

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Rank: 4

Post time 2005-7-9 22:29:19 |Display all floors

oh my god mengzhi

ur such an insightful person ur opinions are very well put and constructive

china will prob have the problems liangzai mentioned once it becomes a mature economy and more developed but i just hope the govt knows what to do and the BEST way to  reduce the extent of these probs that would already be really great no matter what i just hope china returns to its position it held 5000 years ago and maintain that power by  learning from mistakes etc...

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Rank: 8Rank: 8

Post time 2005-7-13 05:48:04 |Display all floors

The Spindoctor Swede.

Liangzai ( what a cute Chinese name ). Yes I do not speak for my government but I can tell you that most of my Chinese compatriots agree with me. As bendent stated in the original post " double standard must be dubunked ". For too long now some Europeans have been strutting around with a ' holier than thou, I know best ' attitude towards Asians. They have been sermonising and preaching in a monolouge to us ' natives ' . We are rather sick of this. You have stated some facts but it is the attitude and tone which make me cringe. It would do well for our European friends to learn that the best way forward is to engage in a dialogue ; learn to listen as well as just pontificating unidirectionally. It is also called manners.

BTW your spin language . The obfuscation , the swerving and sliding to justify the indefensible is impressive enough to think you must be a first notch diplomat. Good on you. Adios.

Confucius said " To lecture is simple , to do the deeds is another thing. "

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Rank: 6Rank: 6

Post time 2005-7-14 09:59:46 |Display all floors

Guys...

There are a lot of good points in all your arguments...but I see some holes too. In any case it is already a long thread (how did I miss this one?) .

I will however say this, ...
China does not have a monopoly on suffering and pain. It seems that as she is trying to assert herself, she is still trying to get the sympathy that she no longer needs. There is enough money to do a lot of good things in China. To balance the  education system and make it publicly available, to improve public healthcare (which although not expensive, is not that good) and make the judicial system reform that is long overdue. Unfortunately a lot of it seems to be invested in expensive black sedans and Maglevs etc.

On the flip side, there is a major push to welcome the world, and as the world is welcomed it brings change. China knows this and is working to get it's populace up to speed. Unfortunately, there are too many people and a rift is growing daily between the empowered and mobile and the destitute.
This does not bode well for "one China" in the future.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, Liangzai was not saying that Sweden is the best rahrah Sweden...just that he is able to see what it is and what it isn't.

Take a good look around you and be objective . Forget what country you are from and just analyze a situation and try to see why someone else views it differently.

Thanks.

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Rank: 4

Post time 2005-7-15 02:26:33 |Display all floors

i have a feeling this country has no future

even tho i want it to but there are jsut too many problems and emerging threatening ones it is difinitely different from all the other world class countries but different in a bad way

this country isnt going to be powerful at all so dont bother feel threatened it is so weak no power at all and prob lags 100 years behind korea and japan let alone america

im not bashing or anything or suddenly changing my tone but thisis how i see it now that i feel despite progress this country is stuck in the middle always standing dead kind of not moving anywhere if u understand what i mean

but pls shouldnt stop developing just because of crap idiots like me as i said in my other post nothing should prevent inhibit chinese ppl from losing hope or moving forward even if it lags 1 billion years away from average status this is the only option even if it results in disaster only path man

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