Author: WENGEWANG

Double Standards   [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2018-8-17 16:49:45 |Display all floors
Jaaja Post time: 2018-8-16 18:04
Hacking is normally stealing - stealing or blackmailing money, or stealing other people's identity ...
And who says you need to stop liars? If I post a lie in this thread, you only need to silence me in this thread, and you'd do that by presenting facts that prove me be lying. Of course someone may be in denial of your facts, and keep going. But it is not your duty to stop them - your good work is done.


What if the lie keeps spreading if it is not stopped? An evil tongue can cause fire and ruin the forest faster than the axe.  My "good work" is useless in that case. The internet has to be guarded and regulated just like the real world.

Lying is a completely different act, and if we are talking about lies (in internet or elsewhere), I maintain that hacking is not relevant topic for this thread.

A borderline case would be if someone hacks into computer of Trump, or you or me, and post false commentary on internet in our name. If it can be established that it was this hacker who was spreading the lines (rather than Trump or you or me), then he could be guilty of both hacking and lying


I am focusing my discussion from a whole perspective on how the internet should be regulated or else the harm from that could affect people in the sphere of business, society, and politics. Why is the example of hacking not relevant?

But as I have tried to explain earlier, problem is rarely about facts vs. lies anyway. It is about facts vs. opinions. For some things there simply are no facts.


I agree that for some things, it is a matter of preference. However, things are not always as simple as that. Lies can be disguised as opinions. This should not be downplayed. If things are that simple, the world would be a better place.

Here is another case of facts vs. lies vs. opinions: China recently introduced laws that prohibit criticizing heros of the revolution. Comments from in and out of China was that it hinders historical research and discussion. It essentially prohibits critical commentary, even when such would be based on facts.


This is a culture thing. In China, and for most Chinese, symbolism is a very important aspect of one's life. The heroes of revolution made a lot of contribution (with some sacrificing their lives) and allowed China to come up whole, in spite of being totally devastated and militarily weakened. If you have the time read up their stories. Making fun of them is equivalent to denigrating their contribution and ignoring the past. They represent the never-say-die attitude and the love of motherland.

Snowden didn't hack into anything. He had valid access to classified information, and his (alleged) crime was to publish that information. Nothing to do with either hacking or lying.


Is it my English or you are trying to evade my true meaning? What I meant was that the NSA spied on other countries for such a long time and would have gone unnoticed if not for Snowden who exposed this to the public. NSA is the hacker, not Snowden. This is public knowledge. The US wanted to try Snowden for treason which shows the admission of guilt by NSA. I am sure you are aware of that.

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Post time 2018-8-17 19:12:42 |Display all floors
huaqiao Post time: 2018-8-17 16:49
What if the lie keeps spreading if it is not stopped? An evil tongue can cause fire and ruin the ...
What if the lie keeps spreading if it is not stopped?


That's why freedom of expression is so important. You fight false information with correct information, not by restricting information.

my discussion from a whole perspective on how the internet should be regulated [...] Why is the example of hacking not relevant?


It is not relevant to topic of this thread, which is about surveillance of citizens by states or other entities. Your logic would same, if we linked fake driving licenses to car theft.

Also hacking is not really limited to internet. You can also hack ATMs for bank card information, or rubbish bins for confidential documents or passwords, or spy your neighbour using his computer from window. The weakest part in information security (in internet and otherwise) is almost always its users.

Lies can be disguised as opinions.


And that's fine in my opinion. Opinions should never be taken as facts - that's a mistake of the reader. Real problem is opinions presented as facts.

The heroes of revolution made a lot of contribution (with some sacrificing their lives) and allowed China to come up whole


This is an example of an opinion presented as fact, which is now (if not already before) written to stone by China's laws. It is irrelevant how many people share this opinion, or how much symbolism or national pride it constitutes, it is still an opinion. For example my opinion on this matter is, that the Japanese empire helped communists in the civil war much more than the communists themselves. But still just an opinion.

"Snowden didn't hack into anything." [...] my English or you are trying to evade my true meaning?


Sorry, I misinterpreted what you wrote. Your English was fine.

US wanted to try Snowden for treason which shows the admission of guilt by NSA


I do not think that NSA wouldn't have used hacking to get some of that information in the first place. I didn't think so before Snowden's leak, nor do I think so now, or for any country with equivalent resurces, including China. And they use many other methods than hacking through networks.

NSA is no doubt guilty of that, and on topic of differences between west and China, that's the relevant part.

Western authorities are guilty of that, meaning that it is against local laws and the public in general would not accept it, if they knew.

In China it is standard practise to the degree that service providers are required to provide the information to the authorities, without warrants.

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Post time 2018-8-18 15:27:52 |Display all floors
Jaaja Post time: 2018-8-17 19:12
That's why freedom of expression is so important. You fight false information with correct infor ...
That's why freedom of expression is so important. You fight false information with correct information, not by restricting information.


I have no problem with that. What I am saying is that once the information is found to be false, would you still allow it to spread or stop it?

It is not relevant to topic of this thread, which is about surveillance of citizens by states or other entities. Your logic would same, if we linked fake driving licenses to car theft.


Maybe we are going about it in tangent. My topic is about stopping false information on the internet and that the internet should be regulated like the real world. Yours is more about freedom of expression.


This is an example of an opinion presented as fact, which is now (if not already before) written to stone by China's laws. It is irrelevant how many people share this opinion, or how much symbolism or national pride it constitutes, it is still an opinion. For example my opinion on this matter is, that the Japanese empire helped communists in the civil war much more than the communists themselves. But still just an opinion.


Opinions are not a problem. The problem is how it is presented and the real intention behind it. That is the underlying problem.

Sorry, I misinterpreted what you wrote. Your English was fine.


That's fine. No problem.

In China it is standard practise to the degree that service providers are required to provide the information to the authorities, without warrants.


If this is your concern, you may be aware that this is not unique to China. There are other countries doing the same thing. There are also countries that are doing it in secret, whilst openly being against it. Laws and regulations are unavoidable in life. Without them, society (any society) will be chaotic. What ever it is, go for what suits you.

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Post time 2018-8-20 15:32:18 |Display all floors
My reply 2 days ago to Jaaja did not appear. Is it a technical issue? Or was it something I said?

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Post time 2018-12-31 16:20:13 |Display all floors
huaqiao Post time: 2018-8-18 15:27
I have no problem with that. What I am saying is that once the information is found to be false, ...

Your reply seemed to finally appear at some point, so I'm continuing this a bit late.

What I am saying is that once the information is found to be false, would you still allow it to spread or stop it?


First of all, occasionally something good can be found from following wrong tracks. Information (no matter how false) should be allowed to be discussed and debated about.

But more importantly, who decides what is false information? As I suggested in above comments, in my opinion the challenge in any information (to most people) is to separate opinions from facts, and that also applies when deciding that something is false information. Making that judgement should be based on facts, not opinions.

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