Author: canchin

many crow about democracy - let's see what it really means [Copy link] 中文

Rank: 8Rank: 8

Post time 2005-3-28 12:32:27 |Display all floors

Well thank you Mr. Fish.

Not that aid is needed as all the thread is designed to do is seek an examination of all of the existing iterations of the concepts of democracy and get input on which form or combination of forms would be most helpful to the China dynamic.

You have yet to analyze the forms and come up with an amalgam that could prove useful - that would be helpful. Your addictive fixation on only one aspect - and an aspect that you unknowingly feel is not already being followed because it is not being done in the backward manner of your country's system - is not very helpful at all.

Perhaps as my original post was too lengthy for you - as you have mentioned - just a couple brief sections; cut and pasted here for your pleasure would allow you to focus better.

"There have been and still are so many commenting on democracy as if they understand it. But from their writings it seems they are only repeating the word as a media virus they picked up on and repeat (as a good virus must to propagate) ad infinitum hoping that it will somehow "stick."

There are so many forms of democracy, and derivatives of democracy, being applied around the world that it is incorrect to use the word as a blanket definition from which one could create a mind's image of what the word means.

A government system that contains what can be gleaned as the "good points" from the different forms while excising the "bad points" is what China is trying to create, but with the constant rhetoric that only throws out the "word" as if that is sufficient and that somehow the form they imagine is really what they imagine, the comments by those eager to see their imagined form as the one established in China as "the one" are not all that helpful.

Perhaps an examination of the common existing forms can allow those interested posters that like to do more that simply pontificate, to actually come up with some constructive options would be more helpful."
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"No one should pretend that democracy is perfect or all-wise; and any that do, show they misunderstand the nature of politics and the various systems. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time" - this is a quote by the former British prime minister Winston Churchill. Mind you, Winston Churchill also said: "Only animals and Americans stand up to bathe (shower)," so one must take posthumously used, out of context quotes, with a "grain of salt."
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"Simply mouthing the "word" as if understanding is useless. Blind and automatic application of a model already showing deep failures is unproductive. Only experimentation and a willingness to experiment is a valid road to a goal of a superior system of government. Only by first acknowledging errors can those errors be addressed so as to be corrected."
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"Others do not want to change. They want blind acceptance of failures, and they fear creation of anything new that will be better than what "they" may now have and which may graphically demonstrate those failures. The easiest and only recourse "they" have is constant ridicule, demand a "rush" to accept "their" failures, and then a self-congratulatory pat on the back when those failures are applied elsewhere.

"Those that see themselves as "leaders" need by definition to have others "follow" and the idea that another may be working toward being a "leader" by exposing the failures of a current "leader" always results in the "current leader" degenirating into a posture of force and intimidation - whether in the "animal" kingdom or humankind."
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I also note Mr. Fish your use of an odd phrase "erception is Reality." You leave out the most important part of phrase "erception is reality to the one so perceiving." It thus does not make the perception a reality in any sense of the word for anyone other than the one so preceiving - only for the individual. sort of like "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

There are many unmentioned aspects of error in your use of the partial phrase - and they would exist should you even have used the whole idea. The main point is that if one perceives the world as being flat, that neither makes it a reality nor the one with such perception; sane. It only shows the one with such an insane perception as perhaps never either going beyond their own tiny sphere of experience to see whether or not the world truly is flat, or being so blinded by oppressive brainwashing by those wanting the world to be seen as flat - or the earth as the center of the universe - that they are unable to see beyond into the greater reality wherein the truth does reside.

Finally - for this piece - to do what you seldom do, I will answer the questions you again ask and that have been answered numerous times before:

China is already following democratic principles and is refining those priniciples even further so that they are applicable to the China dynamic. The perfection of the system China is developing will happen when it has evolved to the point of perfection as viewed by the people so perfecting the system and not at the dictate or force of any outsiders.

Your final question is written in such a way that it is difficult to answer because as is the point of my original - there are so many different examples of application of democratic concepts that no single one can be termed "Western Democracy" because they all differ so widely.

But it can be safely said that the system that finally evolves in China will, by nature, condition, and proclivity, be more or less similar or different to those systems now existing elsewhere.

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Rank: 6Rank: 6

Post time 2005-3-28 22:15:11 |Display all floors

"So, what is your complaint?"

It's not really a complaint.  I'm merely pointing out that one cannot take your comments seriously when they are filled with sloganeering.

Your most recent example:

"Americans, are brainwashed to look only at $ figure solely. Its people are prepared to bring down the nation with guns blazing."

Not the sort of thing one would say if they are interested in an intellectual discussion.

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Rank: 4

Post time 2005-3-29 07:01:16 |Display all floors

Hmm...

>>China is already following democratic principles and is refining those priniciples even further so that they are applicable to the China dynamic. The perfection of the system China is developing will happen when it has evolved to the point of perfection as viewed by the people so perfecting the system and not at the dictate or force of any outsiders.<<

Yes, they vote etc. etc. but I think they are not doing nearly enough when it comes to separation of power. You can't really stop people from commenting on your system from "outside" - just as members here criticise the U.S system with enthusiasm and bite. It would be wise to take note of any constructive comments (as opposed to dictation... seriously, I don't think any outside forces can force China to change their political situation seeing that it IS a superpower), even if they are from "outsiders"... we are in a globalising world :)

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Rank: 8Rank: 8

Post time 2005-3-29 08:18:57 |Display all floors

China is already following democratic principles ?

I just don't see it. Can China be a Communist country and still follow Democratic principles? Am I wrong?
Either you are Democratic or Communist?

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Rank: 4

Post time 2005-3-29 09:45:19 |Display all floors

Well,

>>I just don't see it. Can China be a Communist country and still follow Democratic principles? Am I wrong?
Either you are Democratic or Communist?<<

They're not really a communist country anymore you see...

Taken from dictionary.com:


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMUNISM

# A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
# Communism

   1. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
   2. The Marxist-Leninist version of Communist doctrine that advocates the overthrow of capitalism by the revolution of the proletariat
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

China has a market economy, and even recently they have decided not to support money-losing SOEs anymore. They're hardly overthrowing capitalism...

I think the Marxist-Leninist version of the Commmunist doctrine is irrelevant in modern China, although the CCP of course will not say it outright because it is what they had based their legitimacy on.

So I think the "Chinese Communist Party" is only a name today.

The only "communist" aspect of China, I think, is the one-party rule. Nonetheless, even in a communist system, you can have "democratic practices" such as elections. In the PRC, they elect their president, and villages elect deputies to the people's congress etc. etc. Even before they implemented the village election scheme in the Deng era, they had what was called "democratic-centralism"... which I think pretty much means that party members are free to debate issues etc. but when the majority view is decided upon, everyone is expected to follow. But back then, these "democratic" practices were coupled with "undemocratic" ones such as voting by the show of hands instead of secret ballot. Nonetheless, this has since been abolished (they now vote by secret ballot). Hence, there are some democratic practices in China, although what I was saying is that they still have some way to go.

Examples:

- They lack separation of power - the CCP still controls the military and legislature.

- There is no tolerance to CCP challenge - the other parties allowed to participate all acknowledge and fully support the CCP.

The above are just some examples of why I think China has some way to go in terms of becoming more "democratic".  A lot has to do with the paranoia of becoming instable politically. But I do agree that any development towards a "democracy" has to come from within and not "imposed". However, I think China needs to pick up the pace...

I think people confuse "democracy" with "western democracy" and again, "western democracy" is often confused with "U.S democracy".  People need to move on from the Cold War, it's not democracy vs. communism (according to U.S) or imperialism vs. socialism (according to USSR & China) - both of which is "you're either with us or against us"...

Keep in mind North Korea's official name ;)

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Rank: 8Rank: 8

Post time 2005-3-29 11:02:57 |Display all floors

Mr. Wayves - what? That's the official line in American media!

You don't like the truth?

Guns lobby - to overthrown tyranny. local militia, gangs, supremacy groups - black, white, hispanic with automatic guns - ready to create a reign of arnarchy. (which is like the "cleaner" class from the Beggar clans - u might not understand my rather simple explanation)

Money centric - Look again at American movies, mostly about the good life when the bottom 50% scrape for a living in poorly kept surrounding, eating junk Macdonald (cum industrial type) food, high crime, inhuman jobs - selling drugs, burglary, living in graffiti, rubbish strewn streets.......i know, i have been to America and seen it with my own eyes.

(Continuous advertisement to attract Pasha to transfer wealth to America. And continuous immigration from poorer states to the US to earn some money to remit home. Instead of letting your head grow big with ego - this also happens to other rich nations such as Europe, Japan and even Singapore and Malaysia - about 20% of those last 2 states are foreign workers or wannabe immigrants.)

Incestous relationship between an entrenched wealthy class using "Certificate of Entitlement" - or a degree from the Ivy colleges; a mockery of  "democracy" since only the "selected slate" of "rich people" gets to be "voted"!

I rather have a Local autonomous democratic governments and a professional bureaucrat - middle class and having "confucian" tradition and honour doing the hard work of monitoring and regulating. When the "time is right", having "Wise elders" selected from the "Grassroots organization or provincial governments" to decide on the choices created by the bureaucrats. Central governments are best kept small using the economy of scale of a nation as large as China to provide a "cheap" military defense against other predatorial nations.

I must have said this a thousand time! It is a very good system! The other systems are a copy or innovation of the original chinese model!

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Rank: 6Rank: 6

Post time 2005-3-29 11:41:45 |Display all floors

greendragon

You seem to be an itelligent person.  I imagine that we would get along just fine in the real world.  However, I am far more interested in reading the thoughtful responses that are offered by people like canchin and eastwind.  They provide an informative perspective and don't feel the need to be insulting in order to get their points across.

Perhaps you don't realize that you are being insulting.  However, if I truly believed that, I would be insulting your intelligence.  :)

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