Author: augusten

Did MI5 kill Dr David Kelly? [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2009-8-25 13:42:09 |Display all floors
Originally posted by soapdodger at 2009-8-25 13:38
You're in China, you're in good position to bridge differences between China and the west, yet you still see the west through your Chinese eyes....

Yes, I'm in China, but I never live in a western society or system.

You already experienced living in both system, but you don't try to bridge the difference between two.

By selectively choosing on who to preach and by asking me to stop reminding them, you already take sides in the arguments.

Of course I take sides, China's.

The exact same argument works both ways. Stating that you are doing this in retaliation is a cop-out. And for a smart guy, you don't seem to realise this.


They did this not for retaliation, no one provoked them to do that. They did that at first, even China stay silence on their ugliness.

No one here is on any moral high ground when arguing their own governments are 'cleaner' than others. Yet, you still insist you have that right.

First sentence is right.

Please point out evidence to back your second sentence.

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Post time 2009-8-25 16:22:11 |Display all floors
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Post time 2009-8-25 16:51:29 |Display all floors
Originally posted by soapdodger at 2009-8-25 16:22
It makes no difference whether you have lived in a western system or not.  You can be a bridge if you want to.  ...

I've tried, very hard, to be bridge between China and the west, at least I can read and write English.

If you ever bother to notice, I join this BBS in 2006 and very polite then, trying painfully to explain supremacists like emucc how China with 1.3 billion population need more time to modernise and that current western system shouldn't be applied to China. Chinese need more effort and time to meed basic need before fulfilling "lavish" thing like what today's developed world enjoy.

I tried with all my heart, for almost half a year.

Oh and it shows that you have never lived in a western system. You simply cannot accept that people have a separation of government and country which is fundamental to their belief systems. Criticism does not equal attacking.

... Which then I knew I was wasting my time. Western supremacists don't come here for any discussion or arguments. They already reached conclusion before even joinin any thread. What they want is not explanation from me, but for me to admit that Chinese system is inferior to theirs, that the only way out for China is to obey their rules.

Then I abandon my politeness in dealing with them, for they respect only fists and bombs. Since I can't give them bombs, I remind them how wrong they are, using my fists, and I do it good.

I don't try to bridge the two? I discuss topical issues in China, because I live in China, because my family is Chinese, because my future is here. And like you, I reserve the opportunity to discuss these topical issues because it affects my family's future (just like they affect yours).

Then why you singled me out, not to criticize the west?

I haven't seen your posting defending China.

If that means discussing things that are wrong with this country then so be it and if I hear you tell me again that I cannot express those views publicly, in the exact same way that you do on Chinese forums and in Chinese language, then that can only mean one thing - you can do it because you are Chinese and I can't do it because I am not Chinese.  What does that make you?

I'm open enough to consider whether articles by someone contain constructive criticism or slanderous attack. I don't expect anyone, whether Chinese or foreigners to agree 100% to what's happening today.

I wrote this:
You asked me for evidence?  Your previous post on this thread, now contradicting yourself. Note: this should be read 'They attack, I attack back'.

I attack because they attacked first, this is a supremacist mentality to you? I don't know your logic.

No moral high ground, but you still try to find a way to say you are right...

I attack because they attacked first, this is a supremacist mentality to you? I don't know your logic.

Oh and if you really want to get into a childish argument of 'they started it first'...

You mean being silent and accept their attack politely is "mature"?

..I wasn't going to bring this up, but...I think you will find that it was the Chinese who kicked that one off. When first coming across non-Chinese centuries ago, the term they had for these people was 'fan' or 'barbarians'. Yes, from the very beginning, the Han Chinese gave a name to non-Han and foreigners which reflected they were from a 'lower culture'.

You relate the unrelated, a very long time ugly things to see today's. But since I still have my patience, I'll try.

The term of barbarians is in feudal China, when every Chinese imperial court located in central China, considering those outside the birders as barbarians. This included the westerners who tried to do trade with the Qing imperial court. Later, the term barbarians refered to westerners who forced Chinese to gave land deal to them by force. The westerners considered as bad guys with gunboats and opium.

In today's modern China, it's not used anymore. The most area using this is Hongkong, when some of them considreded their land ruled out forcefully by outsiders.

Now you want to find justification for your action, by trying to find historical root? Think this coolly Soapy, because I's also able to do this to you, but as you know, this won't do any good for both of us.

You still want to keep telling me 'they started it'? It has been happening for hundreds of years, on both sides. Continuing with the theme, they started it, I am retaliating, I am defending, I am not attacking is not going move the situation any further forward, is it?

I'm talking about this TODAY"S BBS and TODAY'S western mentality, in the era of globalization, when the west always try to find excuse to interfere in Chinese affairs. You still deny this and use historical cause to justify their action? I'm also able to do it.

One more time, the question I asked by you choose to ignore:

Why you selectively choose me to stop attacking the west, when they started it first. Why don't you ask them to stop?

You want to bondage my movement and let them attack China and Chinese freely?

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Post time 2009-8-26 15:39:27 |Display all floors


The point is that the West claims it is democratic and has a free press.As though that washed away the
bloodstains.As though that made up for the 5 centuries of genocide and slavery and all the rest.But incidents
like this prove that there is no democracy.There is no free press.There is no justice or real justice system.There
is only the law of the jungle.And pointing fingers at non genocidal countries is pointless,pardon the pun.

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Post time 2009-8-26 22:09:34 |Display all floors
Where is the BBC clear and open report on this ?

Where is Amnasty International crying human rights ?

Look what democracy has accomplished !

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Post time 2009-12-6 00:20:59 |Display all floors
Dr Kelly WAS murdered and there has to be a new inquest, say six top doctors

By Tim Shipman, Deputy Political Editor

05th December 2009

Dr David Kelly

Mystery: Government weapons expert David Kelly

Six doctors who believe government scientist David Kelly was murdered have launched a ground-breaking legal action to demand the inquest into his death is reopened.

They are to publish a hard-hitting report which they claim proves the weapons expert did not commit suicide as the Hutton Report decided.

They have also engaged lawyers to write to Attorney General Baroness Scotland and the coroner Nicholas Gardiner calling for a full re-examination of the circumstances of his death.

The doctors are asking for permission to go to the High Court to reopen the inquest on the grounds that it was improperly suspended. If Baroness Scotland rejects that demand, or the court turns them down, their lawyers say they will have grounds to seek judicial review of the decision.

Dr Kelly was found dead at a beauty spot near his Oxfordshire home in 2003, days after he was exposed as the source of a story that Tony Blair's government 'sexed-up' its dossier on Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction to justify invading Iraq.

In one final phone conversation, he told a caller he wouldn't be surprised 'if my body was found in the woods'.

The inquest into Dr Kelly's death was suspended before it could begin by order of the then Lord Chancellor Lord Falconer. He used the Coroners Act to designate the Hutton Inquiry as 'fulfilling the function of an inquest'.

Lord Falconer, a former flatmate of Tony Blair, was also responsible for picking Lord Hutton to run the inquiry.
Suicide?: A police officer stands next to a cordon near Harrowdown Hill in Oxfordshire where Dr David Kelly's body was found in July, 2003

Suicide?: A police officer stands next to a cordon near Harrowdown Hill in Oxfordshire where Dr David Kelly's body was found in July, 2003

But the doctors claim that the original inquest was never formally closed and should now be allowed to hold a proper inquiry.

The six are Michael Powers, a QC and former coroner; trauma surgeon David Halpin; Andrew Rouse, an epidemiologist who established that deaths from cutting the ulnar artery – as claimed in Dr Kelly's case – are extremely rare; Martin Birnstingl, another surgeon; plus Stephen Frost and Chris Burns-Cox.

Lord Hutton concluded that Dr Kelly killed himself by severing an ulnar artery in his left wrist after taking an overdose of prescription painkillers but he skated over the controversies about the causes of death.
Lord Hutton

Lord Hutton concluded Dr David Kelly killed himself

The bulk of his report was dedicated to the political row between Downing Street and the BBC, which revealed the sexing-up of the dossier.

Dr Kelly's death certificate states that he died of a haemorrhage, but the results of a post mortem examination have never been made public.

Crucially, the doctors say that Lord Hutton had no witnesses on oath and did not have to make a finding, as the coroner does, beyond a reasonable doubt.

The doctors tried to persuade the coroner to reopen his inquest in 2004 but were rejected because they were not judged to be 'properly interested persons' with the authority to demand an inquiry.

Now they have hired human rights lawyers Leigh Day & Co to challenge the use of the Coroners Act to close the inquest.

A source close to the doctors said: 'Lord Falconer is on record saying this is a "useful little law" but it was set up to avoid multiple inquests in cases where there were multiple deaths.

It has been used for victims of train crashes and the Harold Shipman case but Dr Kelly's was not a multiple death.

'We argue that that's an abuse of due process. The lawyers have sent the letters this week.

We have concentrated on the finding on the death certificate that the primary cause of death was a haemorrage. We are spelling out why he could not have died from a cut to the small ulnar artery.'

One of the doctors, who preferred not to be named, added: 'When the Romans committed suicide they would slit all four arteries in a warm bath, which keeps the blood flowing. The arteries would close up in the open air and you would not lose that much blood.'

A book on the unanswered questions surrounding the case by Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker concluded that Dr Kelly may have been murdered by Iraqi exiles – but the finger has also been pointed at MI5 and the CIA.

Dr Kelly's family have never commented publicly on his death.

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Post time 2009-12-6 18:43:45 |Display all floors


The crooked British government will find a way of ridiculing and silencing truthseekers.But it is of great
importance that efforts are made to find and proclaim the truth.Thanks for the update,Buddy and Toto.

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