Author: joeching

FUTURE OF LANGUAGES [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2009-1-26 21:43:36 |Display all floors
Originally posted by force_one at 2009-1-25 10:29 PM


Well,
that is your thoughts and feelings, i guess supported for small group with the same agenda but
In reality
Regular chinese citizen who i talked and  i met here ( with different levels o ...


u need to talk to the taxi drivers, the people in the heartland, and the military people.  they are the real chinese, not the english speaking ones and most oversea ones.
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Post time 2009-1-26 22:50:41 |Display all floors
Originally posted by joeching at 2009-1-26 08:59


great idea!

as more a doer than talker, i would like to see all religions and philosophies being taught in one class.  then we ll know whose really for peace/morality and whose, for  self-serving superstition.  the -phobias could be exposed on the spot.  but  all this happen before or after ww3?

on the universal aux language, my natural language programming language has the unique technological advantage, but it's cultureless.  


You're machine language might be a gret idea, but I believe that's a debate reserved for people in the IT industry for the most part.

As for a universal auxiliary language, it would be a human language and thus not necessarily compatible with machine languages. Its advantage, however, would be in its ability to produce literary texts and poetry. It could be the start of a universal auxiliary culture and international literature. Esperanto is a good example of this, but if a better language could be created, I'd be all for it.
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Post time 2009-1-26 22:51:27 |Display all floors
Originally posted by screwvenir at 2009-1-26 14:03


The only thing you believe, SSeneca, is your whore wife's stories badmouthing China.

Why don't you take that slut of yours somewhere else?

May you can find another country to pimp -- We don't want you in China!


You have no class to call another man's wife a whore.
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Post time 2009-1-27 11:25:54 |Display all floors
Originally posted by tianyuanedu at 2009-1-26 06:50 AM


You're machine language might be a gret idea, but I believe that's a debate reserved for people in the IT industry for the most part.

As for a universal auxiliary language, it would be a hum ...


my "machine language" is human oriented, in conversational languages.  the software geeks hate it bcs it took away their monopoly on software.  their turf war and the competing for work between them and the computer goes counter to my language's one tracked aim to move all the work to the computer.

but let me emphasize, this language is only, in my personal opion, a necessary evil mean to the end of material sufficiency.  i propose to make it as secondary as possible.

on the other hand, the cultural language should be mankind's no. 1 priority.  the han characters' pictorial feature really guaranttee it a major part in the final version.  it should be later supplemented by politeness(korea/japanese) and musical(korean/spanish/italian) features in the future.  efficiency should not be considered.
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Post time 2009-1-27 22:42:45 |Display all floors
Originally posted by joeching at 2009-1-27 11:25


my "machine language" is human oriented, in conversational languages.  the software geeks hate it bcs it took away their monopoly on software.  their turf war and the competing for work between them and the computer goes counter to my language's one tracked aim to move all the work to the computer.

but let me emphasize, this language is only, in my personal opion, a necessary evil mean to the end of material sufficiency.  i propose to make it as secondary as possible.

on the other hand, the cultural language should be mankind's no. 1 priority.  the han characters' pictorial feature really guaranttee it a major part in the final version.  it should be later supplemented by politeness(korea/japanese) and musical(korean/spanish/italian) features in the future.  efficiency should not be considered.  


Interesting idea. So your machine language would be a compatible subset of a universal human language? If so, it would probably be wise to create the human language first, and then draw out a machine language from that. As for the human language, whether its words stem mainly from Eastern or Western languages would be less important in my mind than whether it has an easy, logical grammar.

So if this common second language were based on Eastern languages, then the Korean script would be something worth considering. Even Westerners can learn it quickly. Some aspects of Chinese grammar are quite logical too. For example the Chinese ten-one is mh easier than the English eleven since whereas in English we must learn a new word, in Chinese we simply need to juxtapose already-learnt words in a logical fashion. Chinese has this advantage over Korean and Japanese too. For instance, the Chinese word for computer is electric brain. Once we know the meaning of each part, we can guess the word. In Korean and Japanese, it's a variation of computer, but neither compute nor --er exist in these languages, which means that they must memorize the word separately without any understanding of its parts. Computer is quite logical in English but only because compute and -er exist in English too. In that respect, the English and Chinese forms are logical, but not the Japanese and Korean froms, unless of course we translated it literally using the Japanese or Korean word for compute combined with the Japanese or Korean word for -er. Theobjective would be to make the maximum use of word parts by recycling them as often as possible. This way students would not need to have to memorize each word of the new language, but simply to learn the parts necessary to form the words of the language in a logical manner. This would allow for maximum efficiency in the classroom, thusallowing even those who must leave school at an early age to learn the language well as their common secon dlanguage.

Oe problem with Chinese as a world language would be its sometimes lack of grammatical precision. But again that could possibly be countered by borrowing aspects of Japanese and Korean grammar? I don't know, I'm not familiar enough with their grammar; just a thought. If this were the case, it would be a language with a Korean script, likely many words from Chinese with pronunciations modified to conform to the Korean pronunciation and script, and grammar based on a mixture of the three?

Such a language would likely prove to be easier even for a European to learn than another European language, in spite of its unfamiliarity, owing quite simply to its logical structure, just as Esperanto has proven to be easier for Chinese to learn than Japanese for the same reason.

Also, the fact that the language uses such a logical structure would make it more compatible with machine languages than many other human languages are. Its grammatical precision would also make it an ideal translation language. We must bear in mind though that since it would be a human language and not a machine language, the machine-language subset might need some modificaitons to make it even more precise. But of course this subset would need to be learnt only by those in the IT industry for the most part. But since it would be a subset, it woudl be relatively easy to learn too.

Another advantage with this language is that since it would be a human language, literature and poetry could develop in it too over time. This has happened with Esperanto. Since the language is easy to learn, there is now Esperanto literature and poetry written by Hungarians, Japanese, Britons and many others. The same would likely occur with this new language, and for the same reason; it would be much easier to learn.

The question would be, though, who would create it?

Or an even better idea coudl be a language with words from many languages, both from the East and the West, English, Arabic, Persian, Esperanto, etc. too.
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Post time 2009-1-28 10:54:28 |Display all floors
Originally posted by tianyuanedu at 2009-1-27 06:42 AM


Interesting idea. So your machine language would be a compatible subset of a universal human language? If so, it would probably be wise to create the human language first, and then draw out a m ...


ur line of thinking is similar to what many of the asian countries took, when they were convinced that they are "backward" by the kinds of westerners'-arrsss-kissers like sun yat sen and meijin.  in a way, the reason i bud into this area of language of which i know nothing about is to debunk this myth -- both of asia being backward and a cultural language need to be modified to accomodate tech development.

the reason we got all sucked into tech was because whoever doesn't will get beat up.  so, this right off the start is an anti-cultural notion.  

WE MUST HAVE SEPARATION OF CULTURE AND TECHNOLOGY.

this goes also for language.  and as for my part, the tech language that came out of my struggle to hold up the nuclear industry(3-miles island, radwaste storage and space nuclear reactor) in the 80's is intended to salvage the chinese traditional characters.  i just though if they have my solve-it all(including computer analysis of a pingpong match) tech language, they dont have to simplify for tech catchup.

as to my big mouthing about FUTURE OF LANGUAGES, i do want to get language expert like u to help out in promote unification of countries thru culture by way of languages, which is the embodiment of the culture.

i think ur contribution in this discussion is to show us that unification of language is not all whistling dixie.  this converge with my theory that language, not weapon or money, should be the chief instrument for world peace and eventual unification.

all my senses tell me that the han characters is a branding iron for the brain.  with that in mind, or brain, the chinese government should get all chinese kids to learn korean and japanese for 10 years and then let nature take it's course as to what's the next asian language for the asian family of nations.
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Post time 2009-1-28 12:14:16 |Display all floors
ur line of thinking is similar to what many of the asian countries took, when they were convinced that they are "backward" by the kinds of westerners'-arrsss-kissers like sun yat sen and meijin.  in a way, the reason i bud into this area of language of which i know nothing about is to debunk this myth -- both of asia being backward and a cultural language need to be modified to accomodate tech development.

As for language being modified to conform to technology, I have two answers to this. If we are talking about a people's national language or their mother tongue, that is the business of that people. I as a non-Chinese have no say in  whether the Chinese language is to be modified; and if so, in what way, any more than a non-Anglo has a say in whether the English-language is to be modified and how. A national language belongs to the nation that speaks it.

If we are talking about a universal auxiliary language, a common second language that all will have to learn, then I have a different answer. Such a language would be our common language, upon which a common international culture is to be developed. That being the case, we all have a right to a say in what language it ought to be, whether we ought to adopt one among the already existing ones, whether to revise one, or whether to create a new one. This language is one that must be acceptable to all nations, and that being the case, all nations must agree to it. We must consider traditional values in the formation of this language too. Just as King Sae Jong the Great had created the Korean script not out of any interest in material profit, but out of lover for his subjects, so the representatives of various nations, once come together to deliberate on a universal language, must likewise acknowledge that English is out of reach to the common people, and adopt or create a language out of love for their fellowmen, brother hood and justice and not out of simple market forces and material profit.

the reason we got all sucked into tech was because whoever doesn't will get beat up.  so, this right off the start is an anti-cultural notion.  

I can agree with this. Many native English-speakers, though not all, claim that it's only right to let the languages fight it out on the free market, oblivious of the fact that English already got a headstart through historical imperialism. And when we consider that language is a collective commodity, it becomes clear that once one language has a headstart, its advantage can only grow regardless of the social inequalities it may leave in its wake.

WE MUST HAVE SEPARATION OF CULTURE AND TECHNOLOGY.

I disagree with this. I would say that technology must be put to the service of man, and not the other way around. In this respect, technology ought to be an extension of culture.

this goes also for language.  and as for my part, the tech language that came out of my struggle to hold up the nuclear industry(3-miles island, radwaste storage and space nuclear reactor) in the 80's is intended to salvage the chinese traditional characters.  i just though if they have my solve-it all(including computer analysis of a pingpong match) tech language, they dont have to simplify for tech catchup.

Perhaps, but again you seem to know much more than I do about machine languages, so I'll leave that up to specialists in that field to decide on that.

as to my big mouthing about FUTURE OF LANGUAGES, i do want to get language expert like u to help out in promote unification of countries thru culture by way of languages, which is the embodiment of the culture.

Oh you're asking alot from me here. I have no interest in creating a whole new language on my own. I have learnt Esperanto as I believe that it has all the potential qualities of becoming the international auxiliary language fo the future, but at the same time I would not oppose another language from taking its place if it could prove to be as concerned for the ability of the poor and less educated to communicate with their fellowmen.

i think ur contribution in this discussion is to show us that unification of language is not all whistling dixie.  this converge with my theory that language, not weapon or money, should be the chief instrument for world peace and eventual unification.

I would say that a common moral foundation is most important, and that could be achieved by exploiting whatever resource at our disposal. In China, teaching the Confucian classics; in Christian countries, the Gospel; in Arabia, Islam, etc. Whatever works to bring about this common moral foundation. After all, all of the world's major religions have taught peace, justice, love, brotherhood, etc. Confucianism too.

I would say that the second most important thing after that is the adoptin or creation of a common language. Yet in a way that is also an extension of the moral foundation above. After all, if I truly love you, if I truly want to make friends with you, if I truly want to establish a common bond between you and me, first we need a common moral foundation, we cannot do this without a common language. So in this respect, a common language can be viewed as an extention and manifestation, or proof, of the moral foundation.

all my senses tell me that the han characters is a branding iron for the brain.  with that in mind, or brain, the chinese government should get all chinese kids to learn korean and japanese for 10 years and then let nature take it's course as to what's the next asian language for the asian family of nations.

Well, I could see the government giving schools the freedom to choose what second language to teach their students instead of forcing them all to learn English. Some schools might prefer Korean or Japanese to English, and have the resources to teach them. In such cases, I'd say the Chinese government should let them teach those languages instead. This I think could be a reasonable start.
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