Author: yuan_zcen

Divided Chinese map! [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2008-12-20 12:06:54 |Display all floors

Reply #1 yuan_zcen's post

The Chinese leaders should make it clear to these governments, organizations etc... that these kind of maps are not acceptable.  The people that draw these maps are anything but stupid.  No matter what lame excuse they come up with it is obvious that they have intentions to devide China.  From all the posters here it is also obvious that majority, if not all, of the Chinese here are willing to shed blood for our Tibetan and Taiwanese brothers.  Will anyone from the west shed a drop of blood for them?  If not then stop acting like you care about China and it's people.  We Chinese know what is love and what is not so stop your nonsense!!!

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Post time 2008-12-20 12:40:48 |Display all floors
Interesting,
Do you know Hawaiian Independence movement? What is your take on it?
Do you know the decades long struggle of Native Nations in the US? What is your take on it?

Seneca,
Why EU news never mention Hawaiian Independence movement?
Why Native American Nations do not receive similar support from EU?

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Post time 2008-12-20 12:48:05 |Display all floors
Timba,

Why would I care? I'm not even talking about TBTan independence and, to my recollection, have never lobbied for it. In fact, I don't see a lot of talk about independence movements here from the confirmed Westerners, it's mostly people correcting North on his history.

Like Mengzhi, you have simply failed to read the thread.
"Justice prevails... evil justice."

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Post time 2008-12-20 13:01:35 |Display all floors
Originally posted by interesting at 2008-12-20 12:48
Why would I care? I'm not even talking about TBTan independence and, to my recollection, have never lobbied for it. In fact, I don't see a lot of talk about independence movements here fr ...


Interesting, you are so-very-smart not to care. Hugs! I hope every Westerner is as wonderfully brainy as you are. More hugs!

I am sorry to be confused by Emus and nuts and such.

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Post time 2008-12-20 13:09:16 |Display all floors
While we're here, though, the thing with Native Hawaiian independence is that they don't have a right to it under any standard. By the time they lost their country, they had already been importing foreigners for capital, knowledge and labor for over a century. It's basically the same story as with Texas, et al: the original country started importing Americans and all was well until one ruler or another decided to strip the rights they were promised when they signed on. The Americans revo.lted and won.

So I don't think that Hawaiians have a claim. I don't think most tribes have a solid claim either because of the history that led to their incorporation. Alaskan Natives, however, have fairly strong claims, I think, as do the Navajo.
"Justice prevails... evil justice."

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Post time 2008-12-20 13:22:51 |Display all floors
I should clarify, however, I do think China's claims on TBT are very very weak. This doesn't mean I support independence for the region; for one I don't really care about TBT as a practical matter, for second, I don't buy into the idea of ethnic zones defining national boundaries. At the end of the day, I'm an American mutt and the whole concept of France-for-the-French, Germany-for-the-Germans, etc. is always somewhat lost on me.

Likewise, though, the idea that the topic is simply verboten bothers me. Frankly, I don't grant other countries the same status I grant the US when it comes to union or claims of inalienability because the logic of their incorporation is radically different. US states acceded to it on account of a vote of their people, a corresponding vote of Congress and a generally involved legal process that could be broken off by either party unilaterally (this is why Puerto Rico isn't a state, by the way). So when someone says "it's an inalienable part of China/France/the UK/wherever, I balk: it's merely conquered ground or ground married into, it was never a mutual agreement baptized by the vox populi.

Of course, I'm consistent with this: Puerto Rico has certain rights of sec.ession I don't grant to other parts of the US, as do the Virgin Islands and the Pacific territories which have native inhabitants (we own several islands which served at one time as outposts which have never hosted a permanent population because they cannot support a society without external supply, most were coaling bases, navigational beacons or mined for resources but are otherwise worthless, all are currently nature preserves). But this doesn't mean I support it: I oppose any move by PC or Guam to sec.ede, more for Guam than PC because it has the special feature of having no economy whatever if the US pulls out.

My views on these things are rather nuanced, but they are consistent. In the case of the controversial Chinese territories usually discussed, I'll just state clearly that I don't much care what actually happens to them, though I'll happily debate the pros, cons, whethers or whys of their status.
"Justice prevails... evil justice."

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Post time 2008-12-20 13:26:20 |Display all floors
Originally posted by interesting at 2008-12-20 13:09
While we're here, though, the thing with Native Hawaiian independence is that they don't have a right to it under any standard. By the time they lost their country, they had already been importing  ...


Disagree.

Upon the death of her brother, King Kalakauam Liliuokalani ascended the throne of Hawaii in January 1891. One of her first acts was to recommend a new Hawaii constitution, as the "Bayonet Constitution" of 1887 limited the power of the monarch and political power of native Hawaiians. It was Queen Liliuokalani's right as a sovereign to issue a new constitution through an edict from the throne. The American minister in Hawaii, John L. Stevens, called for troops to take control of Iolani Palace and various other governmental buildings. In 1894, the Queen, was deposed, the monarchy abrogated, and a provisional government was established which later became the Republic of Hawaii.

In 1893, James H. Blount, newly appointed American minister to Hawaii, arrived representing President Grover Cleveland. Blount's final report implicated the American minister Stevens in the illegal overthrow of Liliuokalani. On July 4, 1894, the Republic of Hawaii with Sanford B. Dole as president was proclaimed. It was recognized immediately by the United States government.

In 1895, Liliuokalani was arrested and forced to reside in Iolani Palace after a cache of weapons was found in the gardens of her home in Washington Place. She denied knowing of the existence of this cache and was reportedly unaware of others' efforts to restore the royalty. The "ex-"queen died due to complications from a stroke in 1917. A statue of her was erected on the grounds of the State Capital in Honolulu.

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