Author: chinadaily

Rising Russia ( to be world's 6th biggest economy) [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2008-6-8 06:27:07 |Display all floors
...I can understand how Chinese are not as antagonistic towards Russia. For the most part the Russians have tried to avoid meddling in East Asia and are instead focusing on Europe and the Middle East, as well as North Africa and some of South America. However, eventually Russia will turn to East Asia and then I think many Chinese will understand that Russia is not their ally.

Potential aggressor?
Are you serious? :)
And are you in good health condition?

Can you tell me (i'm Russian) WHAT FOR we need ANY kind of aggression on this direction?
We're not crazy about superpower's status like US. We have no "vital interests" in any part of world, in any small country like US. We can supply ourselves with any kind of resource, and we're not trying to take others' resources like US. Since experiment with socialism was failed, we're never teach others which type of government or political systems they're need (like US do). We don't need spread our currency influence with sanction, aggression or war, like US do. We don't need unequal trade, we can handle our needs ourselves and reach prosperity by hard work.
We have enough territory and low population density, so - just in theory - what can be reason of such conflict?  

For centuries of existence of Russian state, we were never attacked by China or prepares to conquer China. China and Russia has ONE short armed conflict (about small Amur's island) in whole known history. It was because badly formulated border's agreement, lack of diplomacy and mutual fear, nobody really wants to escalate it. Not bad for millennium coexistence with longest border on Earth, huh? :)

Compare it to 1000 years history of invasion to Russia from West... i can't even count of them. That's why we always need a buffer states there, satellites and/or allies. And that's why thousands of warheads still targeted for your crazy country: we just DON'T want to be "democratized" with massive bombing. As many people in the world, i see nothing good in getting bomb on my head for the name of "Real American Democracy And American Dream". This kind of sheet for me doesn't look attractive.
We have our own way in this world. Any nation that recognizes our right to live free in our borders IS our friend.

Can we ever trust US like we trust China? :)
Especially, after all those 15 years since USSR collapse, your support of chechen's terrorism, NATO surrounding, "orange revolutions", etc? Think of it. My opinion: no. Never.
Can China trust US (Taiwan is still under US control, and now you're about rising rebels in Tibet)?
This decision belong to Chinese. But... you can also think about it.

Both China and Russia will benefit from mutual trade and trusted relations.
Any kind of problem we can meet, we can handle more effective working close together. It's obvious. You can spread your wishful thinking "China and Russia are enemies", etc., but better use your time more effectively. For example, think about this: how US can "fight with terrorism", support terrorists at same time and looking not crazy? :)

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Post time 2008-6-8 07:20:22 |Display all floors
As it concerns the economy you can bring up comments from the early 90s and 80s to see almost identical comments save for one thing, they're talking about Japan. Problem is ultimately those same fears of China mentioned above become interlaced with economic concerns. It doesn't help that China is not as choosy about its trade partners as the U.S. People associate China with Sudan and Iran, mainly because they're a notable exception to the general attempt of isolation by the West. Of course, Japan has greater trade ties with Iran and Russia gives more weapons to Sudan, but it is China which presently represents all major fears of Americans.

I think as oil gets tighter in the coming years and Russia becomes more confrontational as well as aligning itself closer with Iran and other oil or gas-producing nations the fears will shift to Russia.

Wishful thinking again.

First of all you're saying "Russia becomes more confrontational" assuming this is the same for China and US are same country. :)
But we have problems from US, and no almost problems dealing with China.

However, I was speaking on a more practical level. There will simply be a point where the United States will have to accommodate itself with China for its own good.

Actually it doesn't depend on you. :)

Actually Russia is more than capable of neo-colonialism.

Can you tell more about it?

For instance Serbia recently approved a deal for Russia's Gazprom to gain a controlling stake in Serbia's state-run oil and gas monopoly.

Only source of gas in this region is Gasprom. Theoretically, Serbians can also get gas from Northen Sea, from EU.
But after Belgrad was bombed by US & EU countries, it's will be very unusual got gas with double prices and be dependent in energy from those countries, don't you think so?
And anyway, Kosovo was last Serbian access to the seaports.

And... can you tell what kind of neo-colonialism is here? :)

Gazprom is a state-owned Russian company in oil and gas and one of the largest companies in the world. Among energy companies it is second only to ExxonMobil. Russia's meager GDP belies their incredible economic power. A very large portion of Europe is dependent on Russia for energy.

Is it to prove Russia's will to invade China? :)

There are two interesting things Russia has threatened recently. They threatened to support the secession of Abkhazia and South Ossetia and they also threatened to take Eastern Ukraine, most likely including the entire Black sea coastal area if either Georgia or Ukraine respectively join NATO.

This is just perfect sample of american's lie.
I can't comment it another way, because i can't argue with statements taken from finger.

From a strategic standpoint this is certainly within their power to accomplish and is more than likely to serve their other needs as it would put half the Black Sea coast under Russian control.
Ukraine and Georgia have both been touted as possible counters to Russian dominance of the European energy supply, if Russia takes Ukraine's coast and Abkhazia from Georgia it means those energy routes would be under Russian control limiting Europe's options significantly. Russia certainly has the ability to exert  some level of control in a variety of regions at once.

Man... can you just look to the world map? Do you know where Abkhazia is situated?
Then tell me, what  "limiting routing options" for Europe can be related to Abkhazia? :)

And, by the way, isn't it funny, to place Ukraina and Georgia as samples or "Russia imperialism" after US fund revolts there? :)
70% of Ukrainians are against joining NATO, US-installed president tries to put it into, and this is sample of Russian neo-colonialism? LOL. :)
By the way, do you know, very principality of Russia comes from Kiev (Kyiv)? Kievan Rus' was first Russian state, and after hundreds years center moves to the Moscow. How Kiev can be colony of Russia? Maybe Russia was colony of Kiev... but not other way. :)

...anyway, "colonization" of China (population of 1000 000 000) with 100 000 000 Russians is definitely above my imagination.
Maybe it because i never used LSD or marijuana. But probably i'll need to mix them to take such possibility as seriously as you do.

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Post time 2008-6-9 03:52:24 |Display all floors
Originally posted by wwinterrain at 2008-6-3 14:43

Why should there be a lack of informed opinions? It will seem rediculous
to me especially for leaders, govt.,CIA,military, academia, journalist
and others who are educated and well read, to claim lack of informed
opinions as a basis to their anti-China stance.


I thought we were talking about Americans in general. Certainly most Americans are not very informed on China and indeed many of those you mention will not be well informed on China. On some level it is because bad information is frequently passed along. Case in point are some of the rather fallacious accusations about Tibet. There are people who still cite the 1 million casualty figure, which even supporters of Tibetan independence acknowledge is complete hogwash. That's because there are people who frequently report this figure and either aren't aware it's questioned or only see it being questioned by people biased towards China's government. On many issues I think you'll find this is the case.

There's also a general lack of knowledge about China's system as a whole. That's because many in the West are under the impression China is a centralized totalitarian state, partly because of that old anti-commie bias.

When you find constant reports citing little more than numerical figures without providing context it's only natural people will misinterpret.

Why would a country half way across the globe with the most formidable
military arsenal have to fear when free nations across the globe and
nearby,which is but an ant compared to USA look favourable upon
China with no fear whatsoever.Surely it is not because they are better
informed than the Americans.


There are plenty of people in the U.S. who don't harbor unrealistic fears of China. Even the current U.S. government views China as a strategic competitor more than an enemy. Criticism of China's government, however, is highly common in "free" nations like in Europe, Japan, Korea, Canada, and so forth. Those nations nearest China, however, also have a greater understanding of China on a personal level, something most Americans don't have.

Americans are unable to live in peace. culturally they are
unable to understand that there are alternatives to their myopic view
where in a jungle pyramid, you need to be at the apex or end up being
a prey to those higher up.


You shouldn't lump all Americans into that group, I'm not of that view and I know many other Americans who are not. Most are quite practical.

China's foreign policy is based on mutual respect of sovereignty and
territorial integrity and non-intervention in the internal affairs
of other nations.


That used to be American policy too, unfortunately we abandoned it some time ago.

In the east European arena, what you mentioned is far from what
it was during the days of the USSR.


The Soviets never really used their massive energy power in that time, though. By using energy Russia can gain more leverage over Europe than the Soviet Union.

To keep it short, I find that
the Russian is the victim of western aggression and not the other way
round.


Certainly for the time being this is true, but I don't think threatening the existence of a nation for choosing to join an organization like NATO makes them look like the innocent victim. Russia has a very a domineering attitude, moreso than the U.S. For instance, on the missile defense program Russia's offer for cooperation basically had most of the missile defense system being based in Russia with its command in Russia and what wasn't in Russia near Russia. They wouldn't even consider accommodating any of the system being in Eastern Europe. I'm certain to the U.S. officials involved it looked a lot like Russia was demanding control of the missile defense system, not cooperation.

All things considered, it seems quite clear to me that presently it is
the Russian more than US or Japan that cherish the friendship of China.


Yeah, a lot of Americans really don't understand that China is a much better friend than some of the other nations we associate with. However, I think it's only a matter of time before Russia's relationship with China sours. Russia has had no qualms stepping on the feet of their closest allies when they don't tow the line, like with Belarus for instance. There's also some amount of fear about China, particularly fears about Chinese immigrating to Far Eastern Russia. Russia's government has deported Georgians who, while relations between the two nations are sour, generally as a people are much closer to Russians than the Chinese. It is only because of the relationship between Russia and China presently that Chinese aren't being deported from Russia.

Originally posted by aleksei at 2008-6-8 06:27

Can you tell me (i'm Russian) WHAT FOR we need ANY kind of aggression on this direction?


It's not really a matter of need, it rarely is. All empire-building stems from a desire for security. Russia's economic security requires Europe to continue consuming its energy, which means they can't be getting energy from other nations. That either means those nations which would supply them energy have to somehow be made to work with Russia or Russia has to dominate that nation's energy or control the routes needed to supply that energy.

You can spread your wishful thinking "China and Russia are enemies", etc., but better use your time more effectively.


It's not wishful thinking. I'm just being realistic.

Originally posted by aleksei at 2008-6-8 07:20

First of all you're saying "Russia becomes more confrontational" assuming this is the same for China and US are same country.


You'd see I was specifically referring to the U.S. if you looked harder. My point was that Americans fears will shift away from China. Also consider what happens when problems with North Korea and problems over Taiwan are resolved. The U.S. won't have much reason to keep its forces in the area and with problem popping up elsewhere in the world it's likely we'll move out of East Asia, thus removing another problem between the U.S. and China.

And... can you tell what kind of neo-colonialism is here?


Typically when we talk neo-colonialism it refers to the dominance of certain corporations. Certainly Gazprom taking over Serbia's state-run energy company has some element of that neo-colonialism.

This is just perfect sample of american's lie.[quote]

How is it a lie? Russian officials have threatened Georgia and Ukraine over the possibility of NATO membership. With Georgia specifically they've threatened to recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia and the comments from those regions and Russia strongly suggest or even outright state the end result will be their incorporation into Russia.

[quote]Man... can you just look to the world map? Do you know where Abkhazia is situated?
Then tell me, what  "limiting routing options" for Europe can be related to Abkhazia? :)


Abkhazia is most of Georgia's Black Sea coast. Granted, Georgia isn't really using it, but annexing Abkhazia would allow Russia to permanently deny that coastal area to Georgia. By taking Ukraine's black sea coast would also eliminate one key destination for such supplies and provide Russia a very nice little route of their own leading directly to Southeastern Europe completely under their control.

[quote]And, by the way, isn't it funny, to place Ukraina and Georgia as samples or "Russia imperialism" after US fund revolts there? :)[quote]

I'm not sure what your point is. Does that somehow make it OK to carve them up?

[quote]...anyway, "colonization" of China (population of 1000 000 000) with 100 000 000 Russians is definitely above my imagination.[quote]

I wasn't suggesting something so bold. Russia has very strong ties with India and former Soviet states in Central Asia. They're expanding their ties throughout the region. I don't think China would take kindly to Russia trying to boss them around while at the same time expanding its footprint in China's neighbors, including some with a history of hostility towards China.

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Post time 2008-6-9 15:15:13 |Display all floors
Russia to become world's sixth largest economy in 2008
(Xinhua)
Updated: 2008-06-08 20:39


MOSCOW  -- Russia's First Deputy Prime Minister Igor Shuvalov said Russia will become the world's sixth largest economy by the end of 2008, Russian news agencies reported Sunday.

"For the past eight years, Russia has been developing. By the end of this year, we will become the world's sixth largest economy," Shuvalov was quoted by the RIA Novosti news agency as saying at the 12th St. Petersburg International Economic Forum.

Russia, which joined the G8 in 1998, has now "become a fully-fledged member of the world's largest economies, the deputy prime minister said.

"We are beginning to put behind us the severe crisis of the last decade, and have given ourselves new goals to become a country with developed institutions, a modern democracy with a post-industrial economic structure, and to build a global financial center," he said.

As to the government's future role in the economy, Shuvalov said the government will scale down its dominant role in the economy. "Reducing excessive state interference in the economy is now an important factor," he said.

However, he added that new state companies would be established in the future. "We believe they are needed to act where market agents are not able to act independently. We will create them in such a way that they will work entirely openly, under the rules of corporate governance," he said.

The St. Petersburg International Economic Forum, running from June 6 to June 8, is a major economic forum in the Commonwealth of Independent States, central and east Europe region, held annually in June.


http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2008-06/08/content_6746000.htm

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Post time 2008-6-10 10:45:09 |Display all floors
Originally posted by buddy35 at 2008-6-9 15:15
Russia to become world's sixth largest economy in 2008
(Xinhua)
Updated: 2008-06-08 20:39


MOSCOW  -- Russia's First Deputy Prime Minister Igor Shuvalov said Russia will ...


Good news for RUSSIA...........Bad news for US of a
What's on your mind now........ooooooooooooooo la la....Kind Regards

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Post time 2008-6-10 11:58:27 |Display all floors
Kodama,

We abandoned it because twice there were massive wars which reached our shores. Do you not recall that we were neutral in both World Wars until cowardly ambushed in the latter and plotted against by Germany in the former?

Certainly you cannot expect that the US would go back into isolationism after Stalin's land grab in Eastern Europe while the rest of Europe was in no position to defend itself from a cruel, murderous dictatorship?

I mean, do you even see what happened historically and how everything got to where it is?

It got this way because all these Eurasians are very untrustworthy, their petty squabbles would destroy the world many times over were it not for the US. But I can't count on you to know that, you're probably as ignorant of history as the rest of the people on this board. What between Satsu's conspiracy theories, half the board's antisemitism and Mengzhi's utter weirdness, I'm probably the only sane person here.

[ Last edited by interesting at 2008-6-10 09:47 AM ]
"Justice prevails... evil justice."

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Post time 2008-6-10 15:37:33 |Display all floors
Originally posted by interesting at 2008-6-10 11:58
Kodama,

We abandoned it because twice there were massive wars which reached our shores. Do you not recall that we were neutral in both World Wars until cowardly ambushed in the latter and plotte ...


Uh the Boxer Rebellion ring any bells? The Panamanian secession ring any others? We ended that policy well before World War I.

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