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Rising Russia ( to be world's 6th biggest economy) [Copy link] 中文

Post time 2008-5-18 13:34:15 |Display all floors
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Post time 2008-5-21 14:15:49 |Display all floors
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Post time 2008-5-23 03:33:35 |Display all floors
Originally posted by satsu_jin at 2008-5-17 08:13

Kodama,

Although I do agree with you that it's a bit strange to see China courting the Russians I can understand it. The main reason is obvious. Western Europe and North America try everything to destroy China in its present borders. Anti China campaigns over the last couple of weeks have clearly shown this for everybody to see. Should China do nothing when her territorial integrity is at risk? I don't think so. The logical consequence is to look for Russia as a partner. This has even the advantage of closer relations with New Delhi, a longtime Russian ally.


The U.S. has long given up on trying to convert China. Many Americans were bitter after our toadie Chiang Kai-Shiek was kicked out, but I think you should consider what the Russians have done in comparison.

Russia has a history of directly supporting secessionist efforts, particularly in Xinjiang, in China and I read recently that during the Cultural Revolution they even attempted to use Lin Biao to overthrow Mao. Remember Mongolia was once a part of China, but then Russia had China recognize it and had China allow Russia to seize Chinese territory as well.

In comparison what is the worse the U.S. has done? We've backed Taiwan but never secession. Our most direct interference was Tibet and that has long ended because the feudal lords had no support from the people. The U.S. has not made China give up any territory.

Originally posted by wwinterrain at 2008-5-17 15:48

Its appears that Kodama is under the mistaken impression that we Chinese do not know the difference between foes and friends, wolves and sheep.

He bad mouth  Russia in order to cover his fear that Chinese-Russian friendship may come in the way of the western hyenic pack attempts to encircle China.


I'm not a parrot for the American Empire. I don't deny our futile attempts to contain China or support them. I simply believe some leader, whether it is our next president or the one after, will realize it to be a futile effort and instead focus on other potential aggressors, namely Russia and Iran.

I can understand how Chinese are not as antagonistic towards Russia. For the most part the Russians have tried to avoid meddling in East Asia and are instead focusing on Europe and the Middle East, as well as North Africa and some of South America. However, eventually Russia will turn to East Asia and then I think many Chinese will understand that Russia is not their ally.

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Post time 2008-5-27 15:10:39 |Display all floors
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Post time 2008-5-27 17:18:27 |Display all floors
Originally posted by wwinterrain at 2008-5-27 15:10
Thank you for not supporting a China containment policy. I do believe
that there are a large number of fair minded americans who are not
anti-China, but unfortunately they are  in the minority.


Well, there's quite a few who just don't care. Of those that do I'd say Sinophobia is more common. People are simply afraid of China's rise, partly because there are some common misunderstandings. Many Americans associate China with communism and often thus associate China with the Soviets and so it's presumed China will export communism like the Soviets. This actually is something Mitt Romney pointed to during the Republican primaries. He presented four views towards world order, one being China's which he said was to use "communism" to rule the world. Naturally the American view was all warm and cozy sounding.

So there still exists a Cold War mentality among many Americans as it concerns China. Naturally China is seen as economically more powerful than the Soviets and thus more dangerous. Even those that don't entertain the communism fear still entertain a fear that China will behave as a totalitarian dictatorship and support such dictatorship to the detriment of democracy and some even assume China will be brutal and violent in its rise in a manner comparable to the Soviets.

It just shows a lack of informed opinions as it concerns China.

I think going by the tone of presidential election campaign past
and present, the tendency to blame china for everything that is forever
on going in USA at practically every level, it will be a long
long wait for you. just take a look at the China bashing that westerners
are indulging in right here in CD forum.


As it concerns the economy you can bring up comments from the early 90s and 80s to see almost identical comments save for one thing, they're talking about Japan. Problem is ultimately those same fears of China mentioned above become interlaced with economic concerns. It doesn't help that China is not as choosy about its trade partners as the U.S. People associate China with Sudan and Iran, mainly because they're a notable exception to the general attempt of isolation by the West. Of course, Japan has greater trade ties with Iran and Russia gives more weapons to Sudan, but it is China which presently represents all major fears of Americans.

I think as oil gets tighter in the coming years and Russia becomes more confrontational as well as aligning itself closer with Iran and other oil or gas-producing nations the fears will shift to Russia.

However, I was speaking on a more practical level. There will simply be a point where the United States will have to accommodate itself with China for its own good.

Assuming you are right, don't you think it is more than a mouthful
for Russia, in Europe alone and not even to mention the other three
regions, for her to be able to turn her focus eastward?

Russian formidable military might, is one of nuclear deterent. She may
have the hardware and capabilities to fight a full scale war
and win by totally destroying her enemy but she doesn't have the economic
might to practice neo-colonialism nor the military might to invade and
occupy. We have seen they failed in Afghanistan just as the
American is failing or to some has failed in Iraq. Infact looking at the
present and into the forseeable future it would seem to me that there
are the least obstacle to a China-Russian friendship as compared to
countries like Japan and USA.


Actually Russia is more than capable of neo-colonialism. Russia however, would do it through their energy monopoly. For instance Serbia recently approved a deal for Russia's Gazprom to gain a controlling stake in Serbia's state-run oil and gas monopoly. Gazprom is a state-owned Russian company in oil and gas and one of the largest companies in the world. Among energy companies it is second only to ExxonMobil. Russia's meager GDP belies their incredible economic power. A very large portion of Europe is dependent on Russia for energy. There are two interesting things Russia has threatened recently. They threatened to support the secession of Abkhazia and South Ossetia and they also threatened to take Eastern Ukraine, most likely including the entire Black sea coastal area if either Georgia or Ukraine respectively join NATO.

From a strategic standpoint this is certainly within their power to accomplish and is more than likely to serve their other needs as it would put half the Black Sea coast under Russian control. Ukraine and Georgia have both been touted as possible counters to Russian dominance of the European energy supply, if Russia takes Ukraine's coast and Abkhazia from Georgia it means those energy routes would be under Russian control limiting Europe's options significantly. Russia certainly has the ability to exert  some level of control in a variety of regions at once.

Some westerners argue that
we should differentiate btw American and their govt. I donot agree. The
problem with America is the people and their culture. americans have a
primitive form of culture,law of the jungle, hyenic pack culture, where
they see everything as either predator or prey,with us or against us,
either you join the pack and accept American overlordship or be hunted
down. It is no wonder that America has no friends. They only recognise a
vassal or a foe. Americans have to realise that there are other political
social systems in the world and their way is not the only way nor the
best way, that the world has other cultures that are more advance than
theirs, evident through the test of time and not a momentary short period
of glory. Until then,America will find herself friendless and very lonely.


I generally don't think most of my fellow Americans, remember you're talking to an American here, view things in such stark terms. I certainly don't.

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Post time 2008-6-3 14:43:19 |Display all floors
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Post time 2008-6-3 14:47:04 |Display all floors
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