Author: pendragon

Guantanamo, the shame of a generation [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2007-3-27 21:55:44 |Display all floors
Originally posted by changabula at 2007-3-27 22:26
The Chinese in the west are hammering the sh!t out of everyone in the educational establishments.


Actually they are like a lot of other students.

There are many who work really hard, and do well because they want to make the most of the advantages a free society offers them. We see this with students from other backgrounds too.

There are a few also who don't make the grade or have difficulty with their education or adapting, but again it's no different to students from other backgrounds.
There are occasionally some extreme situations, like the student who shot his tutor and a couple of other students, but these are extraordinary events which are due to an unbalanced individual, and could occur with a student from any country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monash_University_shooting
At 11:20am on October 21, students on the sixth floor of the Menzies Building on Monash's Clayton campus reported hearing gun shots. Huan Xiang, a commerce student at the university, armed with five loaded handguns, had opened fire in room E 659, a tutorial room. Two students, William Wu and Steven Chan, were killed and others seriously wounded, including Laurie Brown who required abdominal surgery. When Xiang stopped shooting and moved to switch weapons, injured lecturer Lee Gordon-Brown and a student in the room, Alaistair Boast, tackled him. Lee Gordon-Brown distracted Xiang whilst Boast delivered a Shukokai Karate roundhouse kick to his head, fracturing his left cheek bone and causing him to drop his pistol

On June 17, 2004 a jury found Xiang not guilty of the murder of Wu and Chan and of the attempted murder of five other people in the tutorial room on October 21, 2002, due to his mental illness. Justice Bernard Teague ordered Xiang be transferred to the Thomas Embling psychiatric hospital.
"他不是救星, 他是一个非常淘气男孩" - Monty Python

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Post time 2007-3-27 22:26:26 |Display all floors
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/2007 ... .G8EmUIQskujAJvaA8F

Hicks pleads guilty to terror charge after 5 years in Guantanamo

GUANTANAMO BAY, Cuba (AFP) - Australian David Hicks has pleaded guilty to a charge of supporting terrorism before a US military tribunal in Guantanamo Bay, more than five years after he was detained in        Afghanistan.

Looking somber with his hands clasped in front of him, Hicks, 31, stood beside his US military lawyer who entered a guilty plea to the charge of providing "material support for terrorism."

The plea late on Monday came a day after defense lawyers said Hicks was weighing a possible plea deal that could get him out of the prison for "war on terror" detainees at the remote US naval base in southeast Cuba.

"This is the first step towards David (Hicks) returning to Australia," David McLeod, an Australian defense lawyer for Hicks, told reporters afterward.

A former horse trainer in the Australian outback who converted to Islam, Hicks had been portrayed by the prosecution as an aspiring holy warrior trained by Al-Qaeda and as a restless youth by his family.

The Hicks case has became a major political issue in Australia. Its conservative government, which had lobbied Washington to expedite the trial, welcomed the plea but complained that the legal process had taken too long.

"I'm pleased for everybody's sake that this saga has come to a conclusion," Foreign Minister Alexander Downer told the Australian Broadcasting Corp.

But he added: "My view was always that the legal process had just taken far too long."

Defense lawyers say the Australian government had pushed much harder on the case in the past year after coming under mounting criticism at home over the issue.

Downer said that Hicks would be back in Australia soon under a deal between the two governments.

"We have an arrangement with the Americans whereby he can serve any residue of his sentence in an Australian prison," he added.

Hicks was accused of training at an Al-Qaeda camp in Kandahar in southern Afghanistan, and allegedly volunteering to fight alongside Taliban forces during the US-led invasion in 2001.

He was the first detainee to be charged before the new tribunals, which were reconstituted under a controversial new law after a previous tribunal system was tossed out by the US Supreme Court last year. And Hicks is the first detainee at Guantanamo to be convicted by US authorities.

He pleaded guilty to the overall charge of supporting a terrorist organization but pleaded not guilty to a provision that alleged he had conspired to commit specific crimes, defense lawyers said.

Hicks entered the plea only hours after a visit with his sister and father, Terry Hicks, whom he had not seen since August 2004.

His father said earlier it was an emotional meeting with his son who he said looked "bloody terrible."

Hicks faces a maximum sentence of life in prison for the charge but prosecutors said they would not seek a life term.

Colonel Morris Davis, the chief prosecutor for the tribunals, said the five years Hicks has spent in Guantanamo as well as his guilty plea would be mitigating factors in determining his sentence.

And he denied there had been a plea deal, saying: "I wouldn't describe it as that, I would describe that the accused has elected to enter a plea of guilty to a specification of a charge."

The guilty plea from Hicks does not yet close the chapter on the case.

Under the tribunal rules, which resemble a US courts martial, the defense and prosecution must reach agreement on the precise details of what Hicks has pleaded guilty to and the judge must ensure Hicks understands the facts of the charge.

A panel of military officers, the rough equivalent of a jury in a civilian court, will then determine his sentence, possibly by the end of the week.

Human rights groups said the guilty plea raised concerns that tribunals and the prison represented a "coercive" process, and that Hicks may have believed he could not receive a fair trial.

Two Australian political parties also slammed the proceedings.

The leader of the Greens Party, Senator Bob Brown, said Hicks made "simply a plea for release, for exit from the inhumane Guantanamo gulag."

The Australian Democrats called the guilty plea "a desperate act by a desperate man" who "will come back as a guilty man who has never had a fair trial."


A white, Australian Taliban! Wow!

Now there's Australian missionaries giving for free 100000 bibles for Iraq orphans, a massive 'stolen generation' again to deny their ancestry and tradition.

Then the opponents hit it back  by recruiting a white as follower.

I must admit, Huntington and its "Clash of Civilizations" already began, and it will broaden to the extent current western leadership won't be able to counter.
师夷长技以制夷

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Post time 2007-3-27 22:32:45 |Display all floors
Question: does anyone here support the Guantanamo Bay prison? Could you give some arguments why it's necessary or maybe not even immoral to have this place outside the law?

And guys, it's important in a reasonable discussion to react to the arguments themselves, not to the persons or their character. I don't blame anyone in specific for this, but there's a surprising lack of arguments in this thread.

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Post time 2007-3-28 04:20:26 |Display all floors
Originally posted by pendragon at 2007-3-27 22:32
Question: does anyone here support the Guantanamo Bay prison? Could you give some arguments why it's necessary or maybe not even immoral to have this place outside the law?


Yes, the Irish Joker does!

He is the only one who has not come out and clearly say he is against it. I am not sure about seneca.

At least quite a few people has said that its wrong. So once again I have regained my faith in human nature.
I am Chinese and Proud of it!

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Post time 2007-3-28 04:36:14 |Display all floors
See #32.

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Post time 2007-3-28 06:54:15 |Display all floors
Originally posted by pendragon at 2007-3-28 00:32
Question: does anyone here support the Guantanamo Bay prison? Could you give some arguments why it's necessary or maybe not even immoral to have this place outside the law?...


I don't support the idea of Guantanamo Bay, or the dodgy legal scenario they cooked up for the "trials".

While the USA does face a difficult situation and enemy, where the norms of international conventions are not respected and innocent women and children are the easy targets, I still think the Americans should set the moral high ground in a clear way.
Then the US would have less trouble getting the rest of the international community on side for their actions against these terrorist scum.
"他不是救星, 他是一个非常淘气男孩" - Monty Python

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Post time 2007-3-28 07:33:00 |Display all floors

Moral High Ground

". . . . ,where the norms of international conventions are not respected and innocent women and children are the easy targets, . . . "

What's a self respecting Aussie to do?

Join the army and go kick some turban-head butts, of course.   Questioning and reasoning are for wimps.  Aussies are big and chunky and need ask no questions.  Where the Yanks go, Aussies follow.

Emu, does that not about sum it up?

If the Yanks starting "doing" the Iranians, in Operation Iranian Liberty (or O.I.L. 2), I have no doubt in my mind that the Aussies will want in, if for no reason other than the fact that it would be brown arses they'd be kicking.

[ Last edited by tongluren at 2007-3-28 07:58 AM ]

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