Author: frothow

America must now use nuclear weapons [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2007-3-6 03:57:59 |Display all floors

Reply #61 wowzers's post

I did not mean enjoy the suffering, I ment enjoy seeing the facts to more inform you!

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Post time 2007-3-6 04:09:27 |Display all floors

Reply #60 mengzhi's post

No Tusnami or Earthquake here!  These deaths are directly attributed to MAO government policy, and not man made disasters.

People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40 000 000
Agence France Press (25 Sept. 1999) citing at length from Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism:
Rural purges, 1946-49: 2-5M deaths
Urban purges, 1950-57: 1M
Great Leap Forward: 20-43M
Cultural Revolution: 2-7M
Labor Camps: 20M
Tibet: 0.6-1.2M
TOTAL: 44.5 to 72M
Jasper Becker, Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine (1996)
Estimates of the death toll from the Great Leap Forward, 1959-61:
Judith Banister, China's Changing Population (1984): 30M excess deaths (acc2 Becker: "the most reliable estimate we have")
Wang Weizhi, Contemporary Chinese Population (1988): 19.5M deaths
Jin Hui (1993): 40M population loss due to "abnormal deaths and reduced births"
Chen Yizi of the System Reform Inst.: 43-46M deaths
Brzezinski:
Forcible collectivization: 27 million peasants
Cultural Revolution: 1-2 million
TOTAL: 29 million deaths under Mao
Daniel Chirot:
Land reform, 1949-56
According to Zhou Enlai: 830,000
According to Mao Zedong: 2-3M
Great Leap Forward: 20-40 million deaths.
Cultural Revolution: 1-20 million
Jung Chang, Mao: the Unknown Story (2005)
Suppression of Counterrevolutionaries, 1950-51: 3M by execution, mob or suicide
Three-Anti Campaign, 1952-53: 200,000-300,000 suicides
Great Leap Forward, 1958-61: 38M of starvation and overwork
Cultural Revolution, 1966-76: > 3M died violent deaths
Laogai camp deaths, 1949-76: 27M
TOTAL under Mao: 70M
Dictionary of 20C World History: around a half million died in Cultural Rev.
Eckhardt:
Govt executes landlords (1950-51): 1,000,000
Cultural Revolution (1967-68): 50,000
Gilbert:
1958-61 Famine: 30 million deaths.
Kurt Glaser and Stephan Possony, Victims of Politics (1979):
They estimate the body count under Mao to be 38,000,000 to 67,000,000.
Cited by G & P:
Walker Report (see below): 44.3M to 63.8M deaths.
The Government Information Office of Taiwan (18 Sept. 1970): 37M deaths in the PRC.
A Radio Moscow report (7 Apr. 1969): 26.4M people had been exterminated in China.
(NOTE: Obviously the Soviets and Taiwanese would, as enemies, be strongly motivated to exaggerate.)
Guinness Book of World Records:
Although nowadays they don't come right out and declare Mao to be the Top Dog in the Mass Killings category, earlier editions (such as 1978) did, and they cited sources which are similar, but not identical, to the Glaser & Possony sources:
On 7 Apr. 1969 the Soviet government radio reported that 26,300,000 people were killed in China, 1949-65.
In April 1971 the cabinet of the government of Taiwan reported 39,940,000 deaths for the years 1949-69.
The Walker Report (see below): between 32,2500,000 and 61,700,000.
Harff and Gurr:
KMT cadre, rich peasants, landlords (1950-51): 800,000-3,000,000
Cultural Revolution (1966-75): 400,000-850,000
John Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen: 27M death toll, incl. 2M in Cultural Revolution
Paul Johnson doesn't give an overall total, but he gives estimates for the principle individual mass dyings of the Mao years:
Land reform, first years of PRC: at least 2 million people perished.
Great Leap Forward: "how many millions died ... is a matter of conjecture."
Cultural Revolution: 400,000, calling the 3 Feb. 1979 estimate by Agence France Presse, "The most widely respected figure".
Meisner, Maurice, Mao's China and After (1977, 1999), doesn't give an overall total either, but he does give estimates for the three principle mass dyings of the Mao years:
Terror against the counterrevolutionaries: 2 million people executed during the first three years of the PRC.
Great Leap Forward: 15-30 million famine-related deaths.
Cultural Revolution: 400,000, citing a 1979 estimate by Agence France Presse.
R. J. Rummel:
Estimate:
Democide: 34,361,000 (1949-75)
The principle episodes being...
All movements (1949-58): 11,813,000
incl. Land Reform (1949-53): 4,500,000
Cult. Rev. (1964-75): 1,613,000
Forced Labor (1949-75): 15,000,000
Great Leap Forward (1959-63): 5,680,000 democides
War: 3,399,000
Famine: 34,500,000
Great Leap Forward: 27M famine deaths
TOTAL: 72,260,000
Cited in Rummel:
Li, Cheng-Chung (Republic of China, 1979): 78.86M direct/indirect deaths.
World Anti-Communist League, True Facts of Maoist Tyranny (1971): 64.5M
Glaser & Possony: 38 to 67M (see above)
Walker Report, 1971 (see below): 31.75M to 58.5M casualties of Communism (excluding Korean War).
Current Death Toll of International Communism (1979): 39.9M
Stephen R. Shalom (1984), Center for Asian Studies, Deaths in China Due To Communism: 3M to 4M death toll, excluding famine.

[ Last edited by convair1948 at 2007-3-6 11:22 PM ]

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Post time 2007-3-6 04:41:39 |Display all floors

convair

Facts?
Facts are extremely elusive.
As noted in the wide range in some of your figures.
Let's say you do come up with an undisputed fact.
What's your purpose for providing this information?
Why are you here?

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Post time 2007-3-6 04:50:46 |Display all floors

Reply #66 wowzers's post

If you will read the conversation exchange that is going on, you will see that an open disagreement exist that "Americans are at fault for all the troubles in the world". When confronted by examples of american deeds suggested, I have no choice but to provide the facts, not opinions - thus the conversation.

Just like your original question, did MAO do it, the answer is history. It does not mean he himself necessarily did these things, but the very form of government he created DID! And facts are not really elusive for those seeking real answers.

Enjoy the forum, but please do not take it personal, this is discussion - not war with one another :)

[ Last edited by convair1948 at 2007-3-6 04:58 AM ]

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Post time 2007-3-6 19:02:50 |Display all floors

The gossip quoting the hearsay.

Mao DID NOT create the famine. China has been beset with famines since the dawn of time. The Yellow river is also called " China's sorrow " for its contributions to both floods and famine.

#1. I noticed that NONE of the " expert " sources provided is Chinese ! Who the hell did they have in China during the CR to count the figures ? Even China itself was too busy with keeping herself alive and fighting further invasions ( Korean war ) to be able to allocate personnel to count the dead. There were millions from all eye witnesses account but to manufacture a solid figure ( which has grown through the decades ) is disingenous, deceitful and a demented ploy. You dissect which part of it is due to Mao and which part of it is due to the famine then. Please provide ONE Chinese source. You understand that the Chinese may have the best means of telling the facts as they were !

#2. The "Agent Orange " dropped in Vietnam by the democracy-delivering Yanks in the 70s still exact huge toll of teratotgenic foetal abnormalities to this day. The people who have acquired and died of carcinomas of the haemopoietic system, thyroid and other lymph pathology is unknown and unaccounted for. Figures mentioned by the present generation of medicos working there place it in the millions range. Then there are the depleted uranium shells spent in Iraq and elsewhere ( god knows where else ) by the Yanks. How about you giving us a couple of links on these casualties then ?

This " Mao and his sins " fable has been repeated so often by the west, it has almost become " facts ". See that power of self deception ? I would like your opinion on the actual figure of deaths that Mao can be made responsible for . This is like trying to catch that elusive ray of sunshine.

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Post time 2007-3-6 19:50:06 |Display all floors
Originally posted by mengzhi at 2007-3-6 21:02
Mao DID NOT create the famine. China has been beset with famines since the dawn of time....

Weren't they getting farmers to smelt iron, distracting people from essential food production?
Werent' they selling grain to the Russians when they should have been feeding themselves?
Weren't officials falsely reporting "bumper harvests" so they would meet the "quota"?
Wasn't the government too afraid of losing face by asking for food aid until too late?


Originally posted by mengzhi at 2007-3-6 21:02
This " Mao and his sins " fable has been repeated so often by the west, it has almost become " facts "....

Hasn't it also been repeated by Chinese officials, to a lesser extent.
(Can't blame him too much, it would call into question the judgement of the rest of the party).
"他不是救星, 他是一个非常淘气男孩" - Monty Python

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Post time 2007-3-6 20:23:20 |Display all floors

Reply #65 convair1948's post

Powerful data indeed be careful they might bump you off this forum with your sobering facts. Menghzi put up a laughing face if you want
but i dont think anyone is laughing especially you

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