Author: johnners

The EU needs to outlaw American aggression [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2007-2-23 18:38:32 |Display all floors

Diversity is strength


The charge that Europe is in danger of being swampled by Muslims or their
culture is also symptomatic of the hysterical xenophobia that has gripped
Dubya's America. As a European I have no fears at all that European culture
is under "threat" from less liberal or intolerant doctrines - be those Islamic or
the policies of the Bush administration.

I would make the point that no culture can be unequivocally defined in
irrefutable terms. Right-wing politicians in the UK attempted to define
"Britishness" a few years back. The futility of this exercise only served to
underline the exclusiveness nature of its perpetrators. Indeed, the only aspect
of British culture that received consensual national endoresement was that of a drinking culture. The reality is that all cultures are, to a greater or lesser
extent, diasporic and constantly evolving. Chinese culture, for example, has
changed significantly since the death of Mao, in 1976.


Europe's diversity is its strength. I relish living in a wider community of
differing traditions, languages, cuisine and wines. I live in the southwest of
England, but often do my weekend shop across the Channel in France. I fly
to Germany to collect my new car. Relaxing weekends in cities as diverse as
Stockholm, Vienna, Rome and Madrid are only short flights away. For 25
years I have enjoyed summer breaks on the shores of the Mediterranean
and marveled at the legacy of the magnificent cultures that have left their
stunning architectural footprints.

The point of this thread is that Europe needs to harness its international voice
through the office of a single foreign minister, which it currently doesn't
have. The bellicose statements coming from America, Russia and the Far East
need to be countered by a more conciliatory approach; Euorpe is the most
likely candidate to provide that peaceful diplomacy.
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Post time 2007-2-23 19:43:16 |Display all floors

johnners,they must not have torched your car yet!

For sure keep the blinders on if you like.

The unwillingness of some people to even admit there is a problem, which there has been for a while now, and where we are headed in the future in this regard, only reaffirmed what I have said earlier about a failure of culture.  Its ironic that the worst offenders in this regard are self appointed cultural elites.  

I dont intend for the following to change minds, but a good read nonetheless.  Enjoy.

[quote]An Uncertain Road: Muslims and the Future of Europe


Throughout Europe today, it is not uncommon to see women wearing headscarves and men with skull caps and beards. On many European streets, shops now sport signs in Arabic and other Near Eastern languages and sell an array of exotic looking products from the Middle East and other parts of the Islamic world. Indeed, in the space of a few decades, whole neighborhoods in cities like Birmingham, Rotterdam and Paris have been transformed. Streets that have witnessed hundreds of years of European history are now playing host to a decidedly non-Western people and culture.

This is the new Europe, one in which a rapidly growing Muslim population is making its presence felt in societies that until recently were largely homogeneous. Muslims are still very much minorities in Western and Central European countries, making up roughly 5 percent of the European Union's total population. But a number of demographic trends point to dramatic change in the years ahead.

Islam is already the fastest-growing religion in Europe. Driven by immigration and high birthrates, the number of Muslims on the continent has tripled in the last 30 years. Most demographers forecast a similar or even higher rate of growth in the coming decades.

The social impact of this growing population is magnified by a low birthrate among native Europeans. After a post-World War II baby boom, birthrates in Europe have dropped to an average of 1.45 children per couple, far below the 2.1 needed to keep population growth at replacement levels. The continent that gave the rest of the world tens of millions of immigrants and Thomas Malthaus' dire predictions of overpopulation is now faced with a shrinking populace.

Amid these demographic shifts lies a host of social challenges. While many European Muslims have become successful in their new homes, many others do not speak their host country's language well, if at all, and are often jobless and poor. Moreover, segregation, whether by choice or necessity, is common, with large numbers of Muslims living in ghettos where the crime and poverty rates are high.

For Europeans, too, Muslim immigration poses special challenges. Unlike the United States – a land of immigrants with no dominant ethnic group – most nations in Europe are built around a population base with a common ethnicity. Moreover, these countries possess deep historical, cultural, religious and linguistic traditions. Injecting hundreds of thousands, and in some cases millions, of people who look, speak and act differently into these settings often makes for a difficult social fit.
But the growing size and importance of the Muslim population in most European countries is forcing the continent's governments – even those with established immigration policies – to focus more intently on trying to bring this community into the mainstream. Recent efforts have ranged from new laws aimed at hastening the pace of assimilation, such as the recent French headscarf ban, to proposals to assist in creating a more homegrown, European brand of Islam, as is happening in the Netherlands.

The successful integration of European Muslims is crucial to the future of Europe. Prognosticators may disagree on the community's ultimate demographic and social impact, but all believe that Muslims at the very least will be a significant and sizable minority that will play an important role in shaping the continent's future.

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Post time 2007-3-4 21:17:43 |Display all floors

I see your point and I would lie if I said I'm not the least concerned about potential cultural conflicts emerging within our contries due to failed coexistence with the immigrants. But what are we to do? I really feel europeans are really trying now, we're trying to build a society based on mutual tolerance and individual freedoms, and then it's really impossible to ban for instance Islam, even though minor islamic fractions do present a serious threat to our lives and open societies. With that said, there's nothing indicating that Islam in general can't flourish peacefully within Europe. I'm sure it can, I don't mind, but if it comes to a point where they show a different face and tries something funny like demanding sharialaw for all or something like that, then I would of course fight, but not before. We need to give people a chance.

I think however Islamic communities in Europe should be more open or active, and try to prevent the formation of entirely islamic enclaves within our cities. So far in my view, the governments have been the only ones trying to do an effort, but their measures have been fairly effectless. This I think is because a government can only do so much, the rest is up to the people, to grasp the opportunities their given and not give up when the nationals seems exclusive towards them (here the national majorities also needs to make an effort).  Islmic communities should not take a defencive stand, but have a positive reaction at any critisizm towards them. They must also learn to tolerate "disrespectful" actions and utterances by nonmuslims when this is not ment disrespectful in any way.

Through our education system European governments have created new generations of mostly tolerant children and young adults, so it's very sad if immigrants loose their patience so soon and isolate themselves in destructive subcultures, when now might be the time they've waited for to become assimilated  into "good" society.

For America concerned, I guess it's not only europeans who won't admint there is any troubles at home....

[ Last edited by safaribehn at 2007-3-5 06:44 AM ]

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Post time 2007-3-5 07:28:16 |Display all floors
hm, my posts keep disappearing and reappear?!? how come...

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Post time 2007-3-5 07:33:02 |Display all floors
this is weird, wonder if anyone else can see my posts, if so i must seem like a madman!

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Post time 2007-3-6 13:57:13 |Display all floors

this is weird, wonder if anyone else can see my posts, if so i must seem like a madman!

I can see you all right, but there's all kinds of mad.:)

there's nothing indicating that Islam in general can't flourish peacefully within Europe.

You couldn't have meant that;

Father killed family for being too western ... 02/21/nmuslim21.xml

A father killed his wife and four daughters in their sleep because he could not bear them adopting a more westernised lifestyle, an inquest heard yesterday.

Mohammed Riaz, 49, found it abhorrent that his eldest daughter wanted to be a fashion designer, and that she and her sisters were likely to reject the Muslim tradition of arranged marriages.

On Hallowe'en last year he sprayed petrol throughout their terraced home in Accrington, Lancs, and set it alight.

Caneze Riaz, 39, woke and tried to protect her three-year-old child, Hannah, who was sleeping with her, but was overcome by fumes. Her other daughters, Sayrah, 16, Sophia, 13, and Alisha, 10, died elsewhere in the house.

Riaz, who had spent the evening drinking, set himself on fire and died two days later.

Relatives broke the news to the couple's son, Adam, 17, as he lay terminally ill with cancer at the Christie Hospital, Manchester. He died six weeks later.

Michael Singleton, the coroner, recorded verdicts that Riaz killed himself and that his victims were unlawfully killed.

Riaz, who had spent all but the last 17 years of his life in the North West Frontier region of Pakistan, met his Anglo-Pakistani wife when her father sent her to the sub-continent to find a husband.

After an arranged marriage, she developed a career as a community leader in Accrington while he, handicapped by a lack of English, took on a series of low-paid jobs.

After Mrs Riaz's father died she "suddenly felt less beholden to Mohammed", a friend said. "She started to develop her own circle of friends and allowed the girls to express themselves in a more western way."

She began to work with women who felt suppressed by Asian culture and many saw her as a role model for young Asian women.

Please note the man, while hailing from one of the wildest corners in hairy Pakistan has been in England for 17 years.  One would assume hes conversant with how the west live and burning your "wayward" womenfolk is hardly a daily occurence.

I really feel europeans are really trying now, we're trying to build a society based on mutual tolerance and individual freedoms

Tolerance is nice but isnt it more a problem with the muslims?  

I disagree with you.  Islam cannot flourish peacefully in Europe or anywhere else other than a Muslim country, and not necessarily peacefully even then.  Any other place, it wont be the true islam nor in its entirety when immigrants practise their ROP.   Islam is a political movement, and part of its doctrines is domination over all non believers.  It may seem quaint and tranquil to some to watch them go down on all fours en masse in mosque, but real Islam is not peaceful.  Politics and power never is.

The following is taken with modification from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat.

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness.

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs [Europe, Australia, USA and Japan]. Six percent of US prison inmates are Muslim.
Unlike most other minorities, they won抰 integrate, but work to build their own separate community.

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. They will push for the introduction of halaal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation
jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves (along with threats for failure to comply).

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law.
The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world, but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. (Paris car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats.

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning (India, Mindanao, Philippines and Israel).

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare [Indonesia].

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya (infidel tax). (Sudan, Kosovo, Lebanon and Egypt).

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide [Sudan, Western Papua (New Guinea), Biafra, Turkey and North Nigeria].

100% will usher in the peace of "Dar-es-Salaam" - House of Peace - as in Saudi Arabia, Libya and Yemen.

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Post time 2007-3-6 21:58:57 |Display all floors

Myopic racism...


Your posts are less than even-handed and clearly do not entertain a circumspect view of issues.

Of course, extreme Muslims have committed crimes and terrorist outrages. But murders are,
unfortunately, a feature of all countries in this world. Yet you choose to single out and demonise
murders carried out by Muslims.

Let's get it straight, Muslim communities have been much more the victims of Western aggression
than the other way around. The joint death toll of 9/11 and 7/7 is a few thousand. How many
innocent Iraqi men, women and children have subsequently died as a direct result of indiscriminate
military action by US/UK forces ? The medical journal "The Lancet" insists it is many tens of thousands
and even hundreds of thousands. This genocide is predicated on the cause of 'liberating' Iraq.

So, I suggest we mourn the deaths of all victims of deranged doctrine, no matter whether such
doctrine originates in Mecca, London or Washington.
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