Author: johnners

The EU needs to outlaw American aggression [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2007-3-7 07:27:08 |Display all floors
I hear you D, but of course I do ment what i wrote, more or less, because not so many years ago it would be unthinkable, in any christian country, in many ways to live the way we do today aswell, although not to that extent it's unthinkable in many muslim communities. I do concider islamic racism toward westerners and espessially women as a serious matter, but what i'm saying is that even muslims are humans, and not made out of stone, and i'm confident most of them can, or capable of (if not already) change or favor moderate islam if we let them and not dictate or exclude them too much. And then we must deal with those idividuals who won't adjust and performes crimes according to law and not fearful by predjudice.

You see, I too follow this develpment with great sceptisism, and while you see conflict as inavoidable I see it as highly probable but not a necessary outcome. At the moment it really is all a matter of which direction the great majority of islamic communities in europe choose to go, the backward one or correct one. Of course some friction will there always be, like that moslim kids will be picked on along with the christian kids by the cool unreligious kids and so on... So my point is becoming more like this; it would be so much easier if they could just abandon their religion altogether, but it's not gonna happen

But it would also help if the US could stop throwing so many stones around all the time. I'm with johnners on this one... Let's show some old fashioned chivalry instead and see what happen before we start disgracing ourselves again..

And one more thing, without the uneducated (and sadly too often, educated) immigrants, we'd have to do all the crappy jobs ourselves, even less time to make babies

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Post time 2007-3-7 21:41:17 |Display all floors
johnners says

myopic racism

How so?  Not that I care, nor do I understand the significance of the myopic part.

Yet you choose to single out and demonise
murders carried out by Muslims.

Thats called being on topic.  What use would I have for murders by non muslims in illustrating my point?

Let's get it straight, Muslim communities have been much more the victims of Western aggression
than the other way around. The joint death toll of 9/11 and 7/7 is a few thousand. How many
innocent Iraqi men, women and children have subsequently died as a direct result of indiscriminate
military action by US/UK forces ? The medical journal "The Lancet" insists it is many tens of thousands
and even hundreds of thousands. This genocide is predicated on the cause of 'liberating' Iraq.

I think here you re guilty of indiscriminate body count.   How many of those 'many tens of thousands
and even hundreds of thousands' of death -the figure I think is 65,000- are caused  by Islamoterrorists and insurgents? In case the events unfolding in Iraq escapes you, muslims kill their own too.  In spades.

There's really a difference between deliberate targetting of civilians as in  9/11 and 7/7 and collateral damage.  Distinction should also be drawn between the terrorists' practise of using civilians as human shields for bodies and weapon stockpiles, and the restraints on the part of the Coalition to avoid and minimize civilian casualties at the expense of the troops.

i'm confident most of them can, or capable of (if not already) change or favor moderate islam if we let them and not dictate or exclude them too much. And then we must deal with those idividuals who won't adjust and performes crimes according to law and not fearful by predjudice.

This sounds fair enough;

except theres no such animal as moderate islam.  

Islam doesn't countenance non believers and preaches violence to further its domination.True muslims dont pick and choose which part of their belief system to practise.  Their religious texts are to be accepted in total and are not open to interpretation.  Deviance is apostasy.  Which is as bad an offense as being an infidel.

What complicates matters is muslims are allowed by their religion to lie about or hide their real intention from non believers.  In fact its something approaching mandatory practise when confronted with non believers.  So how many of those "moderate muslims" are for real?

As a point of illustration, how many of those moderates, I prefer moderate souls who are otherwise of muslim faith, how many have come out to condemn muslim violence?  You don't hear much of those, but you see them taking to the street in marches and protests all the time at the slightest provocation to their faith,  most times at imaginary greivances.  Fact is the system in the west is such that they benefit by playing the part of the persecuted.

[ Last edited by diaboloist at 2007-3-8 12:29 PM ]

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Post time 2007-3-8 02:20:03 |Display all floors

There are none so blind...


You say that you do not understand the phrase 'myopic racism', but don't care....

There is little point in promoting a discussion with someone who trumpets their own ignorance. Yet you
have the gall to make sweeping statements about the 'limitations' of other people and their beliefs.

You really should get out more...
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel

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Post time 2007-3-8 23:37:45 |Display all floors

Reply #5 johnners's post

I have read your posting here - along with the others,  and cannot understand the comparrisons provided. I cannot recall a single country in the history of the world that was "Malevolent to all". I find it interesting that so many hate the american people because they think we always support our government. HMMMMMM !

Their has been alot of discussion of Musslim Terrorism, yet most americans I know, do not speciffically  think those of the Musslim Religion are responsible for Terror. History is full of nations, people and histroical individuals who have waged "Holy Wars" to justify conquest and domination. The US has certainly had it's share of this kind of mindless history - but so has the rest of the world.

Everyone, and apparently every forum, cites IRAQ as ameria's proven aggression and interference. I am courious here for someone to please explain exactly "What was good about Iraq" prior to either intervention by the US. (Leave Bush out of this answer - I will address that in a moment here).

George Bush (which I do not Like at all - I think him mad) is if nothing less the President of the United States. Even now 76% of america is not interested in his vision, but not a single american beleives he is acting from malice, nor questions his loyalty to america. The truely sad part here is that his policy and his actions - shows contempt for the american laws, all in the name of national security. The sale's pitch,  is no longer beleived by america.

During his administration, world influence - creditability and sad justifications have set the american progress back 20 years. But the real question here is not the bad administration of one man, aside the retoric of other nations - but what are they doing to help correct the problem. The conflict in IRAQ is more fundamental. Which soverign nations are at risk in the area. I think my question would be this: who can fix this problem?

I find it interesting about the worlds cry's of "The americans are allowing this" OK I will have to agree. My question now is someone name for me a single government inwhich the people can stop a war by themselves, without  complete civil war. I don't know of one, nor do americans want to overthrow our system of government. In just 2 years he will be gone (It would take that long to impeach him) so we wait.

Now for my last point. Someone please tell me exactly what was EVER good about Saddam Hussain. Did we support him - yes at one point america helped him against Iran, but at one point we helped Iran against Iraq. (That's Politics) not policy ! The intended goal was to maintain "Balance of Power" in the region. Good,Bad or indifferent that was the agenda.

The entire Middle East Region is to this day dominated by Secterian Leadership, it has not changed in 1,000 years. It's leadership goals are not to the people, but control of the singular largest resource "OIL". In china the new economic wealth has been used to help the people of china, In the USA, EU and even the Federated Republics the wealth is used to improve the lot of the populations. Not in the Middle East !

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Post time 2007-3-9 09:47:19 |Display all floors

Howdy, johnners!!!

Originally posted by johnners at 2-20-2007 20:25
The continent that was riven by bloody conflict for centuries and
spawned two world wars has enjoyed unshakeable peace among its
constituent members for 50 years

Except for the conflicts in/with IRA, Yugoslavia,  Albania, Algeria,  Afghanistan, Iraq, Venezuela, different parts of Africa, India, HK (well, that was actually a better example of 'peace'), Vietnam, E. Germany,  the list goes on.  Heck, shall I even mention the recent Swedish excursion into Liechtenstein?  ;-0 Not to mention one whole generation of people is all 50 years is.

You should have more thanks to NATO than the EU for European unity.  Those Soviet aggressors would have your ass on a plate if it weren't for NATO.  

The EU economy is barely bigger than the US economy in terms of GDP, yet the EU has nearly 50% more people.  

Interestingly, countries like Poland are discussing possible missile defense systems with the US.  The UK has been head-to-head witht he US in Iraq/Afghanistan, and so was France just 15 years ago.  Germany is home (occupied?)to nearly 100k American soldiers (you probably know why).  See link :
Italy has US Air Force located there.  We had to save Yugo in your ethnic wars that you couldn't control in your own backyard just a decade ago.  

Iran thinks Europe is such a joke so much that it thinks any use of force from the UN would certainly come from the USA having to enforce the law(s), hence the reason they only address the United States on the nuclear matter, while entertaining IAEA.  Thank god Germany got a new chancellor is all I can say, and now The Frog is about to vacate the premise!!!  Maybe the EU will become a force to reckon with/

So, how is it that the EU intends to enforce such laws, or make America think that it's a credible enough force so that the USA should be worried of such consequences, especially when Iran isn't even worried? What countries would actually oblige themselves to be America's enemy, when the truth is that we are more integrated than not, even if you don't like it?

[edited for time savings reasons]

You should be more worried about producing babies than limiting US influence what with your population dragging and all.  It's worse than I thought: "opulation growth is by natural growth, and to a lesser extent, immigration.[17] In 2003, France's natural population growth (excluding immigration) was responsible for almost all natural population growth in the European Union. In 2004, population growth was 0.68% and then in 2005 birth and fertility rates continued to increase. The natural increase of births over deaths rose to 270,100. The lifetime fertility rate rose to 1.94 in 2005, from 1.92 in 2004." wikipedia  Good luck with this endeavor,and if you guys needed any help I'll gladly go to France, Greece, Romania, Poland, and a few others to help populate.  It's the least I can do.  

At any rate, the two-faced liberals will probably grant you your request before the EU does.  Well, at least in front of the media they will, what they do behind the scenes will be more aggression toward China/Russia (and Bush worked so hard to foster a good relationship with the Soveit).  Of course that's if they don't defeat themselves again next year.  

Ghandi was asked: “What do you think of Western civilisation?" and replied "I think it would be a very good idea.” Ghandi     Hey, at least you and I haven't killed each other yet, right?    

[ Last edited by mikeghet at 2007-3-9 05:30 PM ]

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Post time 2007-3-9 23:27:17 |Display all floors

As night follows day...


Many thanks. You are the second American to wade into this thread and confirm its
essential point.

As with many of your posts, the basic facts are an instant casualty.

This thread is about the EU; your long list of conflicts did not occur in the EU!

Granted, the IRA terrorism was within the EU. However, their chief source of funding was
from New York, Boston, Philadelphia... hoisted on your own petard there, I'm afraid.

It stirkes me that so many Americans (a country where only 15% of an affluent population
has passports) base their hugely biased view of the world on a raft of infantile
simplicities, such as "America good/world bad".

Tell me, if American foreign policy has been so beneficient to the world, how come
America is so universally loathed ? Even in the UK, the level of contempt for America
has reached record highs.

Will you neo-cons ever concede that America has, or can, err ?
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel

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Post time 2007-3-10 04:51:49 |Display all floors

the soly howdy is me...

howdy, partners--the only howdy can say & can do is russia to sneeze at america.  btw, what's EU...that's a joke!  take care!   peter

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