Author: eye2eye

aftermath of going abroad [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2006-7-12 09:01:00 |Display all floors
Originally posted by tongluren at 2006-7-12 07:53

All speech is subject to limits in all countries.  The only difference is where the line is drawn.


Nope. Speech, as in promoting ideas, is protected in all democracies. Speech as in instigating riots or making people commit crimes is not covered by this, though, as it is not about promoting ideas but to harm people.

In Germany you cannot praise or defend nazis.  In America you cannot push hate speech, nor can you legally distribute pornography (although the standard is, according to a Supreme, "I'll know it when I see it.").


So Germany doesn't have free speech. Nothing new there. That is a constant critique of that country.

In America, you can distribute as much pornography as you like, and you may deliver hate speech; it is done all the time, in accordance with the law.

The Party IS the mechanism by which China selects its ruling elite, and the system is working beautifully, producing the best leaders in the world in the last decade, bar none.


According to your highly subjective notion or what? No one in the world agrees with that statement, certainly not any independent body. It is simply rubbish.

There simply does not exist a better system or a better ideology (nobody has been able to show better results, and until then, it is true).


Better results? In what areas? How is pollution in China these days? Can you drink tap water? Can the people enjoy month long vacations? Can the people go abroad on those vacations? What killer products have recently been exported from China? What outstanding Chinese discoveries in the sciences have been produced in these 30 years?

Methinks you still have a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way to go before you can even begin to compare result-wise. Shouting about high growth rate from a tiny level is just gonna make people tired.

Allowing those who know less, are less qualified, or have ulterior motives (e.g., as funded by foreigners to subvert China) to gain access to mass media would be detrimental to China's national interest.  It is a reasonable position, and a beneficial one.


Subvert China? You are clearly delusional.

All this is doing is preventing the really good people from coming forward, people who have skills and ideas that are not supported by the fixed ideology promoted by the Party. Fixed ideology states always die in the end.
瑞典人,活着为中国娃娃而死。汉学家、工程师、摄影师、网页设计师等等。爱好:政治、历史、科技、文化等。王菲迷。自由主义者。

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Post time 2006-7-12 09:40:39 |Display all floors

Point by Point

(Emu, you'd be next.)

Liangzai:

1.  Politican speech is "necessary" in "democracies" because structurally the different parties are supposed to sell differing ideas and thus induce the voters to intelligently choose leaders.  But political speech experientially always turn into liars' fests.  As such, the political speech is silly, inefficient, and ineffective in serving the purported purposes of supervising and allowing the selection of good leaders.  In China SWCC provides a better alternative, and thus silly liars' fests (political speech) is not necessary.  

2.  If anything, Germany's regulation of speech is the main reason the nation is so successful (No. 3 economy, with only 1/2 of Japan's population).  Same goes for Singapore.  The combiantion of capitalism and regulated speech is a winning combination, and China is learning the lesson from such successes.  

3.  In America, most states have laws against "pornography" (illegal, as distinguished from mere sexually explicit speech).  

4.  China has the highest growth rate of ANY economy in the last 30 years - and we are not talking about a small, rudimentary economy - China is already No. 4 according to the World Bank, and No. 2 according to the CIA, and this year the growth rate is 10.3 percent so far.  What is that for Sweden?  The measure is highly objective - who are the leaders that delivered the best growth (and thus the best improvement of the lives of the people), with the least strife?  The Chinese CPC leaders win hands down. There is nothing subjective about it.

5.  Pollution is a problem getting taken care of.  The Chinese's life expectancy is among the highest in developing nations, and is still improving.  Deserts are being fought back and turned into productive land.   Since when is being lazy (month long vacation??) a virtue?  The government has been pushing the population to take longer vacations, and the Chinese are becoming the LARGEST source of tourists (and free spending tourists at that) for may countries today.  No, no killer brands yet, but enough to win major market shares around the globe (how do you figure China gets a $14.5 billion trade surplus in a MONTH - that is more than what Sweden sells?).  Number of college grads have increased so much that there are more than the next 5 countries added together.  And by 2010 China will be spending over $100 billion a year in R&D alone.  What outstanding discoveries?  Enough to propel the economy to No. 2 (according to the CIA), and likely enough to finish the job and get China to No.1 in our generation.   Slow but steady (actually not so slow)..  

6.  How tiny is No. 2?  Would No. 1 in 25 years still be too tiny for you, Liangzai?  The beauty is that the growth will continue unabated since the parity would still be there, and the gap will keep closing.  By the time China gets to par, the economy will be how many times that of No. 2?  

7.  Looking at the dismembered USSR, you'd find it hard to sell the idea that the West is not out to subvert China. These are cold hard facts.  

8.  "Fixed ideology states always die in the end."  But you miss the point.  SWCC is not about any dogmatic ideology.  SWCC is charged with bettering the lives of the Chinese, and it is a flexible, rational system of checks and balances, which combines the best of central planning with the raw competition of capitalism, and the combination is full of vigor and is unstoppable, and is better than ANY system you can name today, in delivering growth and stability.  These are objective facts, and verifiable.

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Post time 2006-7-12 10:14:50 |Display all floors
Originally posted by tongluren at 2006-7-12 09:40
...Looking at the dismembered USSR, you'd find it hard to sell the idea that the West is not out to subvert China. These are cold hard facts.  
...

perhaps you'd like Russia with its empire of previous colonies and vassal states intact.

i don't think there are many Russians who miss their previous impoverished empire as much as you. but perhaps former KGB members would  love the sentiment you expressed.
Opinions are determined by interests, but interests are a matter of opinion.
David Hume

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Post time 2006-7-12 10:28:26 |Display all floors

See Who's Talking

These jerks cannot talk about the capable government of China without wishing it ill, and demanding that it be dismantled.  

The Russians had the misfortune of having a traitor for president - Gorbachev sold his nation out and is today one of the richest man in Russia, it figures.  In the decade the ensued, Russian GDP per capita shrank by 70%, all thanks to buying into Western snakeoil of "democracy."  I am sure you jerks wish that on China and the Chinese, but somehow the Chiense find that idea revolting.

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Post time 2006-7-12 10:39:27 |Display all floors
you jerks deleted my post, because you are afraid. it figures.
Opinions are determined by interests, but interests are a matter of opinion.
David Hume

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Post time 2006-7-12 10:44:35 |Display all floors

yes, Mr Putin

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Post time 2006-7-12 11:06:08 |Display all floors
Originally posted by tongluren at 2006-7-12 09:40

4.  China has the highest growth rate of ANY economy in the last 30 years - and we are not talking about a small, rudimentary economy - China is already No. 4 according to the World Bank, and No. 2 according to the CIA, and this year the growth rate is 10.3 percent so far.  What is that for Sweden?  The measure is highly objective - who are the leaders that delivered the best growth (and thus the best improvement of the lives of the people), with the least strife?  The Chinese CPC leaders win hands down. There is nothing subjective about it.

No, no killer brands yet, but enough to win major market shares around the globe (how do you figure China gets a $14.5 billion trade surplus in a MONTH - that is more than what Sweden sells?).


Silly goofy. You can't use absolute numbers when comparing a nation of 9,000,000 people and one of 1,300,000,000 people. You need to use per capita figures. Nominal GDP per capita as per http://www.nationmaster.com/red/ ... -capita&b_map=1 is as follows:

#8 Sweden $38,480.78 per capita
#115 China $1,262.59 per capita

If Sweden's growth rate is 2%, the progression from 2006 to 2051 (45 years) is:

38480.8, 39250.4, 40035.4, 40836.1, 41652.8, 42485.9, 43335.6, 44202.3, 45086.4, 45988.1, 46907.9, 47846., 48802.9, 49779., 50774.6, 51790.1, 52825.9, 53882.4, 54960., 56059.2, 57180.4, 58324., 59490.5, 60680.3, 61893.9, 63131.8, 64394.4, 65682.3, 66996., 68335.9, 69702.6, 71096.7, 72518.6, 73969., 75448.3, 76957.3, 78496.5, 80066.4, 81667.7, 83301.1, 84967.1, 86666.4, 88399.8, 90167.8, 91971.1, 93810.5

If China's growth is 10%, the progression for the same period is:

1262.59, 1388.85, 1527.73, 1680.51, 1848.56, 2033.41, 2236.76, 2460.43, 2706.47, 2977.12, 3274.83, 3602.32, 3962.55, 4358.8, 4794.68, 5274.15, 5801.57, 6381.72, 7019.9, 7721.89, 8494.07, 9343.48, 10277.8, 11305.6, 12436.2, 13679.8, 15047.8, 16552.5, 18207.8, 20028.6, 22031.4, 24234.6, 26658., 29323.8, 32256.2, 35481.9, 39030., 42933., 47226.3, 51949., 57143.9, 62858.3, 69144.1, 76058.5, 83664.4, 92030.8

It will thus take China 45 years to catch up with Sweden, if and only if the current growth rates can be sustained. That is a very big if, since having big growth rate from a low level is easy. It is going to get harder, which means that you may have to wait much longer before catching up.

But that is just in the money area. You still have to catch up in terms of environment, social stability (Chian have 70,000+ riots per year, we have 0), labor laws (we work 8 hours per day, 5 days a week, with 5 weeks of paid vacation, have unions, can go on strike etc), education, justice system, political system and so on.

Please don't compare China to Sweden; it is plain ridiculous. You will lose on every single point.
瑞典人,活着为中国娃娃而死。汉学家、工程师、摄影师、网页设计师等等。爱好:政治、历史、科技、文化等。王菲迷。自由主义者。

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