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New photos of Abu Ghraib abuse surface [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2006-2-18 09:12:03 |Display all floors

Mike the Master of Spin.

Originally posted by mikeghet at 2006-2-18 05:57

While the pictures seem pathetic, we are at war with these people.  Most i ...

Your last two posts are devoted to twisting and turning the situation around muting the gravity and gross brutality of the actions into something everyday and ' normal '. You are not quite practised enough; I have seen better. Nevertheless NO amount of spin, slide, slip , sweet-talk or surrepticious altering the context is going to convince anyone but the most ardent of Dubya apologists that this is a rogues' gallery of inhumane, sadistic and brutalising behaviour unbecoming of any civilised society. What difference if these are new of old photos ? As long as the perpetrators of these crimes have not been brought to account, these crimes are NEW.  " While the pictures seem pathetic ...." coyly Mike concedes. They are straight out results of psychopathic, unhinged and sick minds at work. Some of the injuries are typical of repeated and prolonged traumas ( beatings and cigarette burns , possibly electric shocks ). These are not " seemingly " severe, Mike they ARE severe. To mute and play down the extent of the brutality itself is to rub salt into the wounds of the victims and their families. I do hope that no American prisoners need ever to experience such crass abuses and if they do, no one finds it " cool " to describe the trauma as ' slight and inconsequential '. Have the American capacity to show sympathy , let alone empathy , disappeared for good ?  

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Post time 2006-2-18 12:21:21 |Display all floors
Mengzhi, it does matter if the pictures are old.  I'm very certain some of them I've seen before, so I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they are all old.  This matters because it's like charging the US military with the same crime twice.  To my understanding it's been investigated and I beleive people have been charged with misconduct, not torture, which is exactly what I think it is.  Maybe there are other cases of actual torture, but making people get in their birthday suit is not one of the cases.  Maybe they thought they were going to SW France???  Are they gross?  Yes, and I’d like to think there’s a better way to do business in Iraq.  But I don’t think it’s torture.

This isn't done to all captured enemies either.  

Injuries exposed in the photos are, once again, not necessarily from US soldiers beating them after they've been captured.  If they are and it's considered abuse, then they will be brought to justice.  There's already been an investigation into the matter.  So, this is why it matters if they are new or not.  New would indicate that the problem has not been fixed, if it can be comletely fixed.  With 150,000 soldiers on the ground, it can be expected that all of them won’t behave like gentlemen toward 'enemy combatants'.

Is making a captured enemy get naked considered torture?  It’s not physical that’s for sure.  It might be psychological, but I doubt it’s greater than the brainwashing they received in their Jihad camps.  In any case, the pictures do not show that their physical well being is in danger.  They only indicate that a handful of US soldiers are causing distress to the enemies, which is apparently considered misconduct by the US Army.

It's like saying the Chinese tortured American airmen 4 years ago when they simply detained and questioned American soldiers for lengthy periods as the reports suggested several years ago.  Would you not agree?  They weren't even POWs.

So, are the pictures new or old?  Are some new, some old?  Is this recycled news?  According to the excerpt the CD mod posted in the origianl post, the pictures are from 2003 and so is the story.  Because new pictures are in circulation, does not mean they are in fact NEW.  Many soldier might have even more pictures that we've yet to see, but that doesn't mean they are all new incidents...of course it doesn't mean abuse is not being continued.

Either way, I have faith that there will be punishment for any misconduct, especially situations like this where it damages our cause over there.  Interestingly, there doesn't seem to be any apparent concern in Iraq of the issue this time.  Maybe the cartoons are distracting them?

Did you know at Gitmo, the military bakes the Muslims fresh bread daily?  Yes, it's true...apparently the Muslims won't eat aged bread for some religous or cultural reason.  That's very considerate I think, but there's no coverage of it.  Why not?

[ Last edited by mikeghet at 2006-2-18 12:38 PM ]

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Post time 2006-2-18 12:27:41 |Display all floors
88, I'm going to differ with you on some spin you've spun.

The US put a bunch of irresponsible kids in charge of the prison. This demonstrates how poorly the US government had prepared themselves for the invasion of a place our government had no business getting involved in the way they did.

The MPs were well supervised by military intelligence and CIA senior officers.

The administration had planned for the invasion of Iraq from the earliest days.

At every turn where the USA could have taken the option to hedge, the military took the path that would make exit more difficult.  So when it had the option to use Iraqi military forces that would swear allegiance to a new government, they chose to disband the military altogether and fight them in the streets.  When it had the option to bribe, cajole, and corrupt the Iraqis into divulging the bomb factory locations, they chose to beat and torture Iraqis instead.  In all, wherever a peaceful choice could be made over a choice that would harden the resistance and increase the violence, the latter choice was selected.

88, your government and mine has created an enemy in the desert where none existed before.

  I don't know.

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Post time 2006-2-18 12:28:28 |Display all floors
Also, I'd like to say that last night I watched an American Muslim (Iraqi born I do beleive) endorse GWB and what America and her allies are trying to do in Iraq.  I guess she sees mishaps like this, but doesn't let it overshadow the greater good of the mission.  Interesting huh?

[ Last edited by mikeghet at 2006-2-18 12:40 PM ]

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Post time 2006-2-18 12:40:39 |Display all floors
I don't doubt her sincerity.

There are Muslims and Iraqis who deeply appreciate all that America is doing for them and their country.  There are no finer humans found anywhere, but there are equally fine humans found most everywhere.

One thing America has plenty of is people who appreciate the hundreds of billions of dollars we're spending in their country.  Of course, America unfortunately has even more people who don't want us in Iraq at all.

mikeghet, if you had any idea just what 500 billion dollars would buy in new roads, bridges, tunnels, schools, hospitals, and seniors centers, it would boggle your mind.  Why can't the politicians invest in an American renewal and, like they say about the Iraq invasion, just say we had no choice -- it had to be done now.  Why can't they do that?

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Post time 2006-2-18 16:11:15 |Display all floors

Reply #24 matt605's post

I really doubt how well this type of US military unit was supervised by the CIA, etc. – believe me, the US military has very well trained specialists for deriving information from prisoners!! The guys in this unit were not trained for anything! – These guys were unprofessional week-end playboys and playgirls turned lose on a bunch of indefensible prisoners. It has already been demonstrated in Court of Law that these kids were horsing around!

It does appear that Bush was looking for an excuse to go to invade Iraq and had been looking for an invasion strategy as soon as he took office. But unlike his father before him that cautioned for the need of a post-invasion strategy, Bush Jr. had none. Even in the first Gulf War wherein the US and its allies collected an unprecedented percentage of prisoners, clearly discovering their resurces to handle them stretched -- planning for prisoners was an obvious need, and needed directly right after the invasion!

This in fact an early sign to demonstrate that Bush’s planning did not look past the removal of Sodom Insane except with the nebulous idea that these people might get to vote for their own government someday.

Heck, doesn’t anyone remember the sacking and looting that was taking place in Iraq directly after the invasion? The American press made a big stink about how Iraq’s national treasures were sacked and there was a big effort to try and take care of this unplanned oversight for a long time after the invasion. Like the lack of proper prisoner care, and the fiasco of not properly protecting and reinstating the infrastructure: resources like power, power and sewage, nothing was prepared before hand (kind of like the aftermath of hurricane Katrina), national resources were not protected, there was no public service infrastructure and no plan for one. There was no post-invasion strategy nor planning!


[ Last edited by eightyeight at 2006-2-18 04:19 PM ]

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Post time 2006-2-18 17:35:26 |Display all floors
Originally posted by matt605 at 2-18-2006 12:40
I don't doubt her sincerity.

There are Muslims and Iraqis who deeply appreciate all that America is doing for them and their country.  There are no finer humans found anywhere ...

Shyte, matt, 500billion would buy 'the bridge to nowhere' in Alaska...I'm certain of it! ;-)  So yes, you're right, it could buy bridges in america, but no politicain would ever use the negative money for such a fine thing.

The problem with people saying things like "we could have had free health care" is that it would never have happend, regardless of political party in office.  The question is more like "did the spending of negative money benefit America?"  I think yes, though we've got to get a small contigent of soldiers in Iraq like we do in Afghan, because this million dollars a day (or is it billions?) is not going to last forever.    If Iraq divides into three weaker nations, how is that so bad for the US?  If that's what they all want, then give it to 'em I say.  We got their president, that's all we need.  We can fight in smaller, more elite units across the country instead of being the glue just for the sake of Iraqi unity.

We don't know for sure if she's insincere.  She claimed that many moderate muslims and their organizations are afraid to speak up.  I'd be too, knowing that even the Danish publishers of the cartoons have a 1million USD bounty on their head.  I'd ssay boy, you better get to runnin' real quick!! lol    It's kind of enticing, right???    note to fbi: i'm very kidding!

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