Author: thaquest

Hong Kong Issues [Copy link] 中文

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Post time 2005-6-14 09:04:49 |Display all floors

Beijing is working to allow democracy for HK. Why "rush"?

JB,

Why did the British introduce democracy at a time only when it's nearing the end of its rule?

Why didn't they allow democracy much earlier??

Isn't the United Kingdom been enjoying democracy for a long time before the 90s? Why don't they share such a system with its citizen of HK colony?

If you study the history of HK under British occupation, you will find that the British were virtually powerless in containing dissent without the help of the local Chinese itself. What more can be said if there is such a political system prone to exploitation?

Therefore, we can see that, the very intention of the attempt to install a democratic political system which the British had been shying away for 92 years, at a time when China is taking it back is an insidious move to loosen China's grip on its territory.

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Post time 2005-6-14 09:20:49 |Display all floors

You are a joke...

No. Your thread isn't about HK alone. You merely {{use it}} to against the mainland. THAT's your intention. It is crystal clear. Faking dumb won't make you any less guilty of China-bashing.

So, when faced with a credible challenge, you resort to name calling. Fine then. My point is very simple. I think even a secondary school pupils could get my intended message.

Of all the problems you're trying to portray China in a very bad light, I have shown the readers these are non-issues if we consider a much worse performance of how western governments implement the system.
Lastly, voicing out is not the same as aggressively instigating or clamouring for change.

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Post time 2005-6-14 13:22:07 |Display all floors

JB, sorry you disagree with me...

but I have to agree with admchengho, if Britain thought so much of Democracy, why wait to introduce it as they were 'heading towards the exits?"  That smacks of hypocrisy.

I've shown how Beijing has gone beyond its promises in incoporating HKG into mainland China, where, exactly, has Beijing failed to honor its promises with respect to HKG???  Enquiring minds want to know.

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Post time 2005-6-14 17:45:25 |Display all floors

deananash

"where, exactly, has Beijing failed to honor its promises with respect to HKG"

I think the biggest issue is Article 68 - "The ultimate aim is the election of all the members of the Legislative Council by universal suffrage." Yes, democracy was brought in very late in HK. But I fail to understand why China can't continue what we started.

Why is it so terrible to enact Article 68 or at least set a timetable? Why will everything come crashing down if HK people elect their government and leader? Are they so stupid? It's not as if Beijing's poddle, Tung, did a good job. People might like Tsang but they hated Tung. I thought the CCP wanted some sort of democracy in China eventually. Why not use HK as a testing ground, let them elect their leaders directly and see what happens. Or is that too terrifying for Beijing?

China has done a good job in respecting the rights of HK citizens. There have been some problems, such as the anti-civil rights bill Tung tried to bring in and the electoral changes made after the handover - I really don't understand why they had to be made. But for the main part I think things are ok now. What there has been is trouble with the economy. Whether it was Tung's fault or not is difficult to say. But certainly a lot of people felt he wasn't doing enough to solve the problem.

On civil rights and democracy, the big issue is the future. There has been pressure on some media broadcasters not to criticise the government - death threats and the like. What HKers don't want is a gradual erosion of their rights. We shall have to see.

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Post time 2005-6-14 19:09:07 |Display all floors

...if Britain thought so much of Democracy....

deananash 2005-06-14 13:22
<<..but I have to agree with admchengho, if Britain thought so much of Democracy, why wait to introduce it as they were 'heading towards the exits?" That smacks of hypocrisy.>>

Hey, I'm not condoning the lack of democracy in HK. Patten's efforts were better late than never, but quashed by Beijing's protests.
It is also important to remember that although HK citizens didn't enjoy democracy under British rule, they did enjoy freedoms not available to their compatriots north of the New Territories.
China had a great opportunity after the handover, to introduce democratic reforms like Mencius mentioned, which would have set a great example and embarrassed the British. However the leadership seem to be a bit scared of democracy, as suggested by Mencius.

Of course one could try to determine what the HK people want, hmm, how many hundreds of thousands took part in all those candlelight democ.racy vigils.....??

Cheers
JB

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Post time 2005-6-15 20:47:28 |Display all floors

mencius / emucentral ...neither one of you has shown.....

...even a single example of Beijing not living up to the letter - or even the spirit of the agreement.  I, on the hand, have shown numerous examples of how they have both honored and exceeded the agreement.  (Those candlelight vigils are proving my point, not yours.)

>>>I think the biggest issue is Article 68 - "The ultimate aim is the election of all the members of the Legislative Council by universal suffrage."<<<

Read that again, carefully.  Heck, you don't even have to be that careful.  "The ultimate aim...."  If HKG citizens (through their wonderful British leaders) wanted direct elections in '07 then they should have made sure that was included in the agreement.  HKG could have direct elections in 2020 and Beijing would be in compliance with the Basic Law.  

That's a fact, and if you don't like it, blame the British who now appear to be greatly admired.  For me, they played a very cynical role (regarding HKG's political system) and that is a pity, because HKG is one of the MOST BEAUTIFUL, well designed and vibrant of the world's major cities.  They obviously did a great job with infrastructure, etc...

As long as Beijing continues to respect the Basic Law, HKG citizens have nothing to complain about, yet they are free to continue to complain - a beautiful irony indeed.

For my money, everytime the mass of HKG citizens peacefully demonstrate for what they want - and Beijing respects that right - both sides are winning.

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Post time 2005-6-17 05:36:49 |Display all floors

...blame the British....

deananash 2005-06-15 20:47
<<I, on the hand, have shown numerous examples of how they have both honored and exceeded the agreement. (Those candlelight vigils are proving my point, not yours.)>>

Those vigils are a right, not a privilege. It's no great reflection on China that these vigils are allowed to go ahead, but a shadow on china on WHY people feel necessary to attend them

Britain could not have increased democracy as you suggest, Chris Patt.en's experience when he tried to introduce reform indicates Beijing's attitude. From the start of discussions with the British in the 1980's Beijing took a very hard line, with even threats by Deng what "alternative" repossession options Beijing would use should Thatcher not toe the line on "negotiations" .

As to China's honouring of the agreement, well the BBC "profile" on HK does not entirely agree
<<Hong Kong's constitution, the Basic Law, provides for the development of democratic processes. But under legislation passed in 2004 Beijing can veto changes to the political system. Pro-democracy forces have expressed frustration at what they see as the slow pace of political reform. >>

And in a story on Tsang..
<<Many in the territory feel that the Chinese mainland wields too much power and stifles the high degree of autonomy it was promised when Britain handed it back to China in 1997.

It cannot directly elect its own leader, and Beijing can effectively veto any changes to its political system.
>>

The situation is that the "window dressing" of allowing "vigils" remains, but despite the tentative steps towards "glasnost"  by Beijing, they appear afraid of democratic reforms, and are clearly not meeting the expectations of the HK people.

Cheers
JB

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