Author: judgeandjury

Manufactured Lies to feed the frenzy of the Anti-China USA Congress [Copy link] 中文

Rank: 8Rank: 8

Post time 2004-7-2 01:15:35 |Display all floors

Unfair tsupasat,

SARS was an unknown bug - when it was first noticed it had already spread. Yes, there were "some" that could not treat it and tried to ignore it and that made it worse but as one involved to a certain degree I can tell you that the situation in HK and on the island AFTER it had already been accepted by medical associations in other parts of China is more heinous.

Those that were fired or removed from their posts received this treatment simply because they did not recognize fast enough that what they were dealing with had such a deadly potential.

They were wrong in doing so. They were dealt with and the punishment went all the way to the top.

Hindsight - as so many like to say in regards to other aspects - is 20/20. Perhaps you think that they knew that this never before seen "bug" had the potential to devastate the way it did? Also not fair.

Tell you one thing though that may interest you about who did what and where. In Hong Kong, there was a reason so many people died - and why the ratio of those that died to those that recovered was so different from China.

In Hong Kong, they used a drug called Ribavirin along with steroids. The manufacturer of the drug Ribavirin advised against its use as they had never authorized the use of the drug for such a disease - it was simply a flu drug. The CDC in Atlanta advised against using it because medically it is well known that as many as 25% of users of this drug have an intense Adverse Drug Reaction - they go psychotic! This is not speculation - this is the fact of the drug, look it up. The second major failure made in Hong Kong was the use of steroids. Steroids destroy the immune system - and yet SARS was a disease that attacked the immune system! Stupid thing to do - use one set of drugs that increase the destruction of the immune system and another drug that they were warned against using by not only the manufacturer of the drug but also the American Center for Disease Control!

To compound matters, in April last year, the Frankfurt Institute of Virology published a study in the Lancet that they did of 5 drugs to see if any had any effect on SARS - including Ribavirin - and guess what the study found? Ribavirin had absolutely no effect on the SARS virus replication. Of the 5, only one drug stopped the SARS virus from replicating - only one. Yet in Hong Kong, when the news of the study came out, the HK Health Authority said they would continue to use Ribavirin and steroids - EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOW KNOWN AS A DEATH BRINGING  treatment. They chose to ignore completely the study, the CDC, the manufacturer. That is why there were so many deaths in HK.

In China, they tried Ribavirin, found it didn't work, listened to the CDC, listened to the manufacturer and stopped using it.

So where's your recrimination of the Hong Kong?

Far more people - percentage-wise to infected - died there than in China. Why no holier-than-thou jumping on Hong Kong?

How about the island? Months after SARS had been recognized as a danger in China and there were quarantines, deaths, etc., on the island they still allowed what they call "Flu Clinics" to operate. These are clinics on the island that are separate from hospitals where people with a cold or the flu go and sit around with each other waiting for their chance to see the doctor - who could then tell them that they had contracted SARS and everyone else in the waiting room now also had SARS. This was happening still in MAY for f**k's sake.

So where is your recrimination and outbursts against the island? Why no holier-than-thou jumping on the island?

There were many in China that fought SARS successfully and many that died while fighting it - in fact a large percentage of those that died were hospital staff fighting to save lives - but to say that it spread because of lies is incorrect and inflammatory to the extreme!

It spread because nobody had ever seen the bug before. It spread because of one main apartment complex in Hong Kong from where the residents continued to travel to China after they knew they were sick. It spread because it was an unknown, because effective treatment and understanding of methods of dealing with it were unknown.

It spread because unlike China cities, hotels in HK continued to keep their air conditioners on.

As I said, yes, some tried to hide their failure in not being able to treat it, some tried to hide their failure in recognizing the seriousness of it, but to be so simplistic and insulting as to just say it was "lies" is unfair and - have to say it - another indication that you don't know much about it.

Show me where in Dr. Jiang's report did he even suggest it was "lies" - that's your word. Was it mis-reported? Damn right it was - because nobody had ever seen anything like it before. But did people purposely, knowing that it could kill many people, make a conscious decision to lie? Far too simplistic.

Hell, even in Canada it threw them for a loop and people died - and that was after China already had a handle on it.

But lies? No, that is just your hatred of China and lack of real information sneaking out of your keyboard.

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Rank: 6Rank: 6

Post time 2004-7-2 01:45:28 |Display all floors

re: canchin

i can't even respond to you properly, except to say that my post about dr jiang was to show he is a good chinese citizen.  i think people like him are far more patriotic than people like chairman ... and not just because he alerted the government and the world to seriousness of sars in beijing.

i happen to have some inside stuff on this.  

one of the ladies in our church asked us to pray for her husband in guangzhou at the time the disease was seeing its first cases there.  he is a head surgeon in one of the hospitals there, and they knew something was wrong because doctors and nurses were getting sick.  many of the chinese i know here are researchers and doctors doing work at the national institute of health (nih), and they were very alarmed from the hearsay reports they were hearing at that time.  people such as dr jiang in beijing should be respected and honored for speaking up.

yet look what has happened to him now ...

again, i can't respond fully otherwise my post will be deleted.


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Rank: 4

Post time 2004-7-2 03:22:42 |Display all floors

USA Washington Think Tank invention of lies to insult China.

The distortion of facts into bald face lies to injure China.

Every day you are here and every day you write your western trash.

Every day, you are supported by western foregners located in China on Chinese soil, who have one intention in life, the destruction of China and Chinese by the continued use of we know what is best for you.

Listen to us the western foreigners, your friends of 400 years.

Yeah sure.

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Rank: 4

Post time 2004-7-2 04:36:30 |Display all floors

Gov't agency think tanks?

I can't even get through all of J&J's post.  It's like reading back issues of Pravda.

Think Tanks are not government agencies.  Some of them get some federal support in the form of grants, depending on the study commissioned by whomever.  But most of them are foundations and their products are totally debatable.  Everyone here knows which think tanks are conservative and which are liberal, which are pro-China and which are not.  I think most members of the US Congress have personally been to China.  Those who are predisposed to dislike China because of its lack of freedom, human rights abuses and beligerence regarding Ta iwan do so totally because of these reasons - not because some think tank talked them into it.  

I doubt any member of Congress or even any of their staff lurk on the CD BBS.  But I assure you J&J, if they did, they'd read bull$hit like your posts and become further convinced that China is an enemy of US interests.  You totally fan the flames of any anti-China sentiment that could exist in the US government.  Keep it up.  You are an anti-China person's best reason for their hawkish stance on China.

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Rank: 4

Post time 2004-7-2 05:01:12 |Display all floors

Very Good mikeghet, the intelligence is awesome.

chairman was blamed for the Island election result and now you want to blame me for the condition of an anti-China USA Congress that has been that way for 70 years.

Oh the joy of such ignorance and stupidity.


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Rank: 4

Post time 2004-7-2 05:14:56 |Display all floors

Attention: Western Foreigners, follow this conversation.

Western Foreigners is WF and Judge and Jury is JJ.

WF: I think China should forget the Island, it is not China anyway.
JJ:  No I do not agree.
WF: You are hurting China JJ your are the trouble.

WF: I think the Chinese should do this and that as the west directs.
JJ: I do not agree.
WF: You are hurting China JJ your are the trouble.

WF: I think the Japanese are nice people and can be trusted.
JJ: I do not agree.
WF: You are hurting China JJ your are the trouble.

WF: We will invade China if they do not do as they are told by the west.
JJ: I do not agree.
WF: You are hurting China JJ your are the trouble.

WF: China must be a free western controlled country.
JJ: I do not agree.
WF: You are hurting China JJ your are the trouble.

You guys are very ignorant, close as it gets to retarded.

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Rank: 8Rank: 8

Post time 2004-7-2 11:55:22 |Display all floors

I agree tsupasat,

Everyone that fought the fight against SARS should be honored and many were.

My point is - it was you that used the word "lies" which is in itself a "lie" as you put it.

The problem was an unknown. There was much confusion. There were many mistakes that were made - especially in hindsight.

But you violated the views of Dr. Jiang by immeidately posting below his article that the situation developed because of "lies."

The China government fought SARS strongly - and it was overcome - and there were losses - and they are mourned.

Those that were more concerned about their reputation at not being able to treat the strange disease when they first were faced with it and tried to pass it off - as many doctors do in many countries when they don't understand what they are facing - ended up doing things like blaming it on patients.

One point so conveniently ignored during and after the SARS crisis though - more people die in a month from the common flu just in the States than died from SARS in the whole world during the entire time it was a significant crisis.

The media went crazy about SARS. I watched it, you watched it. Every report was prefaced with fear-inducing words like "killer disease" "endemic killer" and on and one.

Right now, in your hometown, there are people dying from colds, the flu, tell me - is there a massive meida blitz against it?

Iatrogenic death - death caused by errors in operation or treatment - kills more people in the States than SARS did througout its entire run - has for many years and still is this very day even though SARS has been overcome - is there a massive media blitz against this in your hometown? You're there, you work for the media, you should be able to inform us of this.

SARS was a crisis - it was dealt with; but it was blown all out of proportion. The initial reporting was essential and helped push resolution and was a good thing. The knee-jerk fear mongering that went on after was ridiculous and caused incalculable losses financial and otherwise.

More people die from travel to the majority of the countries on the WHO's SARS list from malaria - where is the caution against travel?

Over 11,000 people in the States die from being shot - where is the WHO warning against travel to the States?

It was blown out of proportion, the focus was mainly on China - ooh, a chance to say nasty things about China, let's get right on that, we'll ignore any errors made elsewhere, we'll just focus on China because that's the party line and besides, nobody knows or cares about all the other diseases that kill more people in the States than SARS ever did and we don't want to have any focus on our own failures. Let's focus on China - good stuff for the evening news, after all, it's a slow newsday and the citizens will believe anything nasty we say about China and it will reinforce our own citizens belief in our righteousness.

Deal with it. It was serious. Once it was known how serious it was, it was dealt with. Those that were at fault for ignorance or not recognizing the danger were dealt with. But, the greatest damage done was through the masturbatory fantasies of those that saw a chance to again lambaste China.

You say you have "some inside stuff" on this - doubtful; you've never been here. All you have are third and fourth hand reports. I'm more inclined to believe what I saw, what I was involved in, and the people that were on the ground fighting it.

I bet you don't even know what the SARS patients actually died of. "Inside stuff" - yeah, right!

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